Bullpup disadvantages

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Yowza

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I was looking at various next generation military rifles and noticed that most of the designs are bullpup configurations. Since all indications are that the U.S. is going to be adopting a more traditional setup for the next general issue rifle, I'm wondering why not a bullpup.

So my question is what are the disadvantages of the bullpup configuration, aside from ejection port issues? The only other thing I can really think of would be sight radius, but all of the newer designs that I've seen (XM8 included) are using special optics anyway.

Rick
 
When you say ejection port issues, you are including both where the brass goes and smoke in shooter's face, right?

BP's are usually also notorious for spongy trigger pulls.
 
If you have a kaboom or similar catastrophic cartridge disaster, the problem occurs snugged up next to your pumpkin instead of in front of it.
 
if you know its a fixed EJ port bullpup
you have a pretty good idea what side of the bunker right handed charlie will shoot from
 
My friend made a bullpup shotgun out of a Charles Daly 12 guage, said it was louder. Maybe since the end of the 18 inch barrel is closer to the ears.
 
I don't like bullpups for the weight distribution, that and the trigger. I don't think the smaller size is such an advantage. Just make a rifle with a folding stock if you have to.
 
I like the weight distribution of the bullpups. And if you are smart and use small mags, no problems with prone. 30s on an AR will cause trouble out front even.

One of my favorites is the ability to keep the gun under control (on target) easily, even with one hand. I built up a mossberg bullpup from a kit; it was heavy, and tube-loading is involved enough many people flip the gun over to do it. I could load that thing while still shouldered, and fast.

The case rupturing sounds like a minimal problem. Never heard of one in a rifle with issue ammo in modern times. If anyone has, I'd like to see it as I'm sure it happens. Some of the newer ones, like the Singaporean entry, have blowout ports much like bolt-rifles for primer-piercing, and ballistic shields over the shooter side. Even the 70's-era FAMAS has a steel shield over the firer side, so it would be hard to blow thru that. The L.85 is solid receiver over there.

Smoke? Never seen smoke on anything but lead-bullet shooters. Ejector ports are changable on some, like the FAMAS. I'd be fine with the UK practice (in place since BOWS, I think) of "everyone is right handed." If you are a believer in the left-around-cover, that's something else.

Shooting high over the gun could be bad (increases your visibility or exposure to fire) but no one seems to care. Look at the sight height, and sight radius, of the G36 or XM-8. Lament them their sights.

I hear the trigger complaint a lot, but some people seem to make it work. The brits, despite any number of issues, regularly win NATO marksmanship awards. Yes, with the L.85. The AUG is spongy because...its spongy. That's the way they designed it. Handled some other stuff, but never able to fire them. They seemed normal, though.

I also wonder if, at an institutional level, we are scared off of them by the bad experience with the L.85. Not the fault of the bullpupness, and the latest PIP is supposedly quite good. The A2 took a while to get around to also, though. I know all sorts of people who still look upon the AR as a weird space-gun, so maybe bullpups are just too over the top for our blued frontier-rifle culture.

Maybe.
 
This is an extract from 'Assault Rifle: the Development of the Modern Military Rifle and its Ammunition' by Max Popenker (of the guns.ru site) and myself (it's due to be published later this year):

"There are certain disadvantages to bullpups. In most cases, fired cartridge cases can only be ejected to the right-hand side of the gun, which means that they cannot be fired left-handed as the cases would hit the firer's face (most can be adapted for left-handers, but that takes time). This means that users can't switch shoulders to fire round the corner of a building, for instance. Magazine changes may also be more awkward. The necessarily straight-line stock means that the firer cannot sight along the top of the barrel, so if iron sights are used they have to stick up high above the barrel and the firer therefore has to expose more of his head 'above the parapet'. Proponents of bayonet fighting will also point to the shorter length of the weapon, which means that you have to get closer to the enemy. Bullpups have the action by the firer's head, which some find uncomfortable, and short-barrelled versions have the muzzle quite close to the firer, which means that muzzle blast can be more of a problem.

There are of course counter-arguments. The lack of ability to switch shoulders may be more theoretical than real, as this may in practice be very little used by ordinary soldiers as opposed to special forces. Most soldiers in combat have enough trouble hitting the target when firing from their usual shoulder, let alone from their 'wrong' side, so many armies train only in shooting from one shoulder. The magazine change is not necessarily more difficult, and some users prefer the 'inboard' location as it makes it easier to change magazines when travelling in an open vehicle, for example. Military rifles are also increasingly being issued with optical sights, so the iron-sights objection is less important. In any case, military rifles of traditional layout also have high-mounted sights nowadays, because they generally have straight-line stocks, in which the top of the buttstock continues in a straight line from the barrel, instead of being angled downwards as it is in most older rifles. This is because the recoil thrust in a straight-line stock goes directly into the shoulder, whereas in an angled stock it goes over the shoulder and hence tends to rotate the gun upwards. Bayonets are now too irrelevant to modern combat situations for their length to matter.

Most significantly, bullpup proponents will point out that the increasing deployment of troops in cramped helicopters or armoured vehicles, together with the needs of urban combat, put a premium on compactness. Traditional rifles can only match a bullpup's short length by using stocks which can be folded alongside the barrel, or sometimes over the top of it, giving the choice between a long weapon or a short one which can't be fired accurately. Their only other option is to reduce significantly the length of the barrel, to the detriment of ballistics and effectiveness, especially at longer ranges. These folding stocks are commonly of the 'skeleton' type (i.e. they consist of an open framework) and may be made of metal or plastic. They are usually less rigid and comfortable to shoot with than fixed stocks. Not all rifles are able to use folding stocks anyway because the action may extend into the stock (e.g. the M16). In such cases telescoping stocks may be used instead, but these do not deliver such a reduction in length as a folding stock, and cannot match the compactness of a bullpup.

Finally, firers used to the traditional layout often criticise the different, more rearward, weight balance of a bullpup, but that is, of course, a matter of what you are used to.

What is certain is that the debate between proponents of the traditional and bullpup layouts can become heated and rely more upon emotion than logic. It is also worth noting that the use of bullpup rifles has been gradually spreading, with the majority of recent assault rifle designs being of this type, and that the latest of them – the Belgian FN F2000 – overcomes the principal objection by being genuinely ambidextrous without any modifications or adjustments being required."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum
 
The sponginess of a bullpup trigger would seem to depend on the design of the link from the trigger to the firing pin. On the cheapo bullpup stock sold for Ruger's 10/22 that link is soft plastic and pulling the trigger must feel like sticking your finger in a loaf of Wonderbread.

If a quality metal link was used, it seems the trigger could be as smooth and solid as any other. I'm convinced that the bullpup design will eventually become the universal combat rifle design as the design gradually overcomes the pathological resistance to change that characterizes many people in the military. As Tony writes, "What is certain is that the debate between proponents of the traditional and bullpup layouts can become heated and rely more upon emotion than logic."
 
Thanks for all the replies, guys. Having never fired one myself, I didn't really think about the issues like muzzle blast and having the action right in your face, but I can certainly understand why people wouldn't like that.

I was reading about the workings of the FN2000 which is what prompted me to ask this question, because the complaints I had heard about the Bushmaster Bullpup were the left-handed shooting problems and the bad trigger. If the FN2000 has a decent trigger, then those issues can obviously be overcome, right?

Rick
 
Tests in the 80's indicated that precision firing was limited by cartridge fumes from the chamber leaking up into the shooters' eyes. Watering eyes was a common complaint. Of course, "spray and pray" was not affected.

Jaywalker
 
Jaywalker,

The fumes issue is really pronounced with a silenced submachinegun. Open bolts let the trapped gasses seep out through the breech and you cannot see a darned thing. Not AS MUCH of an issue with the MP-5 with its closed bolt.

Bullpups are great concepts but usually are:
- Heavier by a pound or so
- Slower in operation on all counts, mag changes, dropping to prone, etc.
- They are only marginally more compact, their main compactness advantage comes from having a longer barrel in the same package you can usually get a 12" barrel standard configuration gun. Then again, if you need that compactness, you don't need the extra velocity!
 
They are only marginally more compact, their main compactness advantage comes from having a longer barrel in the same package you can usually get a 12" barrel standard configuration gun. Then again, if you need that compactness, you don't need the extra velocity!

I have to take issue with that!

Two complaints about the US rifles which have emerged from recent conflicts are that the M16 is too long to be handy in vehicles and urban fighting, whereas the M4's barrel is too short for long-range effectiveness. With a bullpup, you can enjoy the best of both worlds.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
 
I got confused. There is an open-bolt bullpup? And I would say open-bolt supressed weapons are very not state-of-the-art.

I don't think bullpups are inherently heavier. Without making a spreadsheet, my impression has been that they are compared on a compactness basis (FAMAS to M4) but the extra barrel of the bullpup adds 'secret' weight that makes it look heavier. They are full-sized guns in small packages. I could be wrong, but that's my impression.

I think an advantage might be for vehicle carry and such, where soldiers might be inclined to fold their gun. The bullpup is as small as it gets all the time. No extra time to prepare for action.

Free-floating (lack of it) seems to be an issue with design on many of them. Not an inherent truth, but the way things work, and not surmountable with minor changes, as on the AR family. (not that this is an issued configuration outside of very specialized circles).
 
These are two mutually exclusive factors, compactness and long-range accuracy. On the face of it, the bullpup solves both of these problems with its design layout. In reality, it introduces new problems which negate whatever advantages it might have had.
 
These are two mutually exclusive factors, compactness and long-range accuracy. On the face of it, the bullpup solves both of these problems with its design layout. In reality, it introduces new problems which negate whatever advantages it might have had.

An increasing number of armies disagree with you - the most notable recent convert to bullpups being the Israeli army, which is pretty serious about its weapons.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum
 
In what numbers has the Israeli/Croatian Tavor been built and fielded? Have seen only a few reports of special forces and security troops using the gun. Seems difficult to build the Tavor when they get M16 variants for next to nothing. I like the idea and, since I'm a correct-handed person, I don't mind bullpups at all. I'd like to see a good one built. Where is it? All are compromises in several areas. None are as superb ergonomically as the M16 Family nor as intuitive. They are poorly balanced and make magazine changes difficult. With the exception of the FAMAS, I was disappointed with all of them. Too bad all the French weapons are good for is surrendering.
 
You can make a long list of disadvantages. But these are all going to be 2nd or 3rd catagory factors and don't add up to much for practical purposes.

The primary advantage of the bullpup being compact yet full length barrel for the highly velocity dependent 5.56 ammo is a pretty big one. I don't think any army that adopted a bullpup regreted the format. Reliability issues with SA80 not withstanding.
 
The pro and con debate of the bullpup design reminds me of what I've read about the complaints about the 1917 Springfield, which had improved sights and a smoother bolt than the old 1903. U.S. soldiers didn't like the sights because they were different from the pronghorn sights on their old Winchester deer rifles, and they thought the dog-legged bolt looked odd, so the military went back to using the inferior 1903.

My point is that the disadvantages Gabe correctly points out as second and third tier like balance and ergonomics might be at least in part due to a lack of familiarity with the design. Like the peep sights on the 1917, it's just too far removed from our comfort zone. The fact that Badger Arms cites the fact that the bullpup design is not "intuitive" leads me to believe that lack of familiarity with the design is as much a part of the bullpup's lack of acceptance as is any genuine disadvantage.

Perhaps a focused program to address the ergonomic and ease-of-use issues combined with a well-thought-out training program for soldiers who will be using the guns could eliminate most, if not all objections to the bullpup design.
 
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