Answer me these questions five about Bullpups

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Andrewsky

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1. How have they worked in combat in real life?

2. Why haven't they caught on with Americans? Is there any possibility that a bullpup will be adopted as the next service rifle?

3. What is the best bullpup rifle available for a civilian? What are all the options?

4. What do experts and firearms instructors think about bullpups?

5. How do they compare to traditional lay-outs? I've seen Australian and British SAS using M4s instead of their militaries' bullpups.
 
1. They haven't been widely used in combat yet. The Brits had very bad luck with their first version of the SA80, but it didn't really have anything to do with it being a bullpup. Apparently however their new improved version is really quite good. The Australians have been using the AUG and the French the FAMAS and they are both pretty decent guns by most accounts I have read.

2. Bullpups hadn't caught on yet when we adopted the M16 and we have yet to replace it.

3. I only handled 5 bullpups, (AKU94, Valmet bullpup, M17, AUG and FN2000). Of those I liked the AUG the best, but I've never actually shot one, so don't pay too much heed to my opinion.

4. I think the general opinion is that bullpups are better for the 99% of the time that you're just packing them around, but not quite as good for that 1% of the time that you're actually using them. The ergonomics aren't as good and most can't be used with your weak hand. You also can't adjust the stock for winter clothing or body armor.

5. I think that goes back to that 1% issue. Those elite units are often training for special tasks like hostage rescue that a conventional rifle might be better suited to.
 
They are not ambidextrous. Being ambidextrous is very valuable in combat. One sumulated combat match I participated in required at least one target fired with the weak hand. I could make the old joke, I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous, but I'll refrain.

Most bullpups can only be fired from the right shoulder, and that is a limitation that could be fatal in real life.
 
I don't know the answer to your questions. I have handled and fired an AUG (semi version) in my past. A friend bought one when they were first brought into the country. It is an excellent rifle. I would own one now if I had the money back then to purchase one.
 
1. How have they worked in combat in real life?
you left the FRMAS off your list and the new PRC rifle. they are idealy suited for urban combat in close quarters because their shorter overall lenght makes them easier to handle

2. Why haven't they caught on with Americans? Is there any possibility that a bullpup will be adopted as the next service rifle?
the american military has an aversion to anything "not invented here"...otherwise we would have adopted the FAL rather than the M-14. we also would have likely adopted a 7mm intermediate cartridge in a bullpup design back then.

the major objection to the bullpup in America is that they insist on shooting with their dominate eye...most other militaries have uniform training

3. What is the best bullpup rifle available for a civilian? What are all the options?
i'd say the Steyr AUG...it is convertable for a southpaw

4. What do experts and firearms instructors think about bullpups?
i don't claim ot be either. i think the best bullpup design has been the Neostad

5. How do they compare to traditional lay-outs? I've seen Australian and British SAS using M4s instead of their militaries' bullpups.
spec op players have always used whatever they wanted...you'll often see them using the AK platform also
 
1: I Dont Know.

2: Most of the weight is in the back rather than towards the center or front, so they balance weird compared to the arms we're used to. They're not southpaw friendly. Well, they're downright mean to southpaws. They're also louder, since your closer to the muzzle. The AUG can use a differnt bolt (and maybe some other parts) to eject for us wrong handers, but that also means that the armorer has to keep a different set of spare parts. One major selling point of the A2 handguards is that armorers didnt have to keep left and right sides, since the top and bottom A2 HGs are the same, replacing a busted one was as simple as getting another instead of looking for the correct side.

3: Since I'm wrong handed, IDK. If not for the weird balance and uncommon caliber, the P90S(?) would look promising.

4: IDK. I'm not one of them, nor do I know any.

5: They balance weird. They're not southpaw friendly. Mag changes are awkward at best IMO.
 
i'm a big fan of bullpups. i've owned several (about 5 different ones, i think now). they're a lot of fun and very fast.

that said, in the big picture, for serious use, none are better than AR15 pattern


i'll also say that i disagree with most who say they're not friendly for wrong-handed shooters. being a lefty, i can tell you that all but one of the bullpups i've owned were easily converted to left-hand use. in the event you need to shoot weak hand, just shoot cross-sholder.
 
1. How have they worked in combat in real life?
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The British have used the SA80 (also called a L85-something-or-other) in combat in Afghanstan and Iraq, and during a peace keeping mission in east Africa. The press recorded some complaits and problems, but less then what you hear about the M16/M4.

The Australians used AUGs in Afghanistan, Iraq, and East Timor. Again no big issues reported in the press.

New Zealand Specail Forces have also been in Afghanistan with AUGs, don't know if they saw action.

The French Forgien Legion used their FAMAS in 2 or 3 shooting deployments in Africa. The also have them in Afghanistan, but except for som specail forces units it appaers they have stayed out of action.

Israel developed a bull pup that may have seen limited action.

Soilders of the P.R. of China started being spoted with a .22+/- caliber bull pup rifle around 1997. But apparently they might be going back to a standard layout rifle, maybe after bad performance shooting pro democracy protesters and Tibetian monks.
 
1. Early models had feeding and jamming problems frequently from what i have heard. Other than that i don't know.

2. I don't know.

3. There are a lot of bullpups you could get. I know there are calico .22 rifles around. Theres also some SA90 and p90 variant in the market. But the 5.7 round it fires is rare and expensive.

4. Some people deem them unreliable for jams, i have no personal expierence to attest though.

5. Don't know.
 
A Bull Pup doesn't have to be unfriendly to lefties.... it is just that the ones out there are....

I like the Bull Pup concept.... more compact for the same amount of barrel....
 
There are plenty of lefty-friendly bullpups available out there. Only the (arguably) crappier designs have been right-handed-only.
 
[QUOTETheres also some SA90 and p90 variant in the market. But the 5.7 round it fires is rare and expensive.][/QUOTE]
the P90 is a very user friendly design...very southpaw usable and mag location makes prone shooting and mag changes easy.

last i checked 5.7mm ammo was cheaper than 5.56x45mm (.223)

plus how can you beat the cool factor of using the same gun as SG-1
 
the P90 is a very user friendly design...very southpaw usable and mag location makes prone shooting and mag changes easy.
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Completely ambi, IIRC. The biggest issue for a lefty, being ejection, was done right from the start. The brass ejects out of the bottom.

But it still has a weird balance.
 
My experience with bullpups is limited to my Walther G22. I like it quite a bit, it's lefty-friendly with work (can be converted to left-handed, instead of right-handed), and it's a hoot to shoot. I probably have about five thousand rounds through it, and while it's not a centerfire rifle (lowly .22lr), I think it's one of the better firearms purchases I made. Seems to jam a lot less than my friends' 10-22s. Just wish I had fifty round mags for it... :)
 
last i checked 5.7mm ammo was cheaper than 5.56x45mm
Click to expand...

I would love to know where this is. And if it was really cheaper than .223 i think there would be more chamberings and it wouldn't be hard to find as it is. What you are saying sort of goes against supply and demand.
 
There's an article examining the pros and cons of bullpups on my website here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/bullpups.htm

The pic below illustrates the key advantage: that for guns with the same barrel length, you save around 8 inches of overall length when they're ready to shoot.

PR%20010.jpg
 
my bad, wrong store...CDNN had the .17 and 7mm-08 on sale

Hornady V-Max SS197SR - $19/50 at both Impactguns and Midway; R&R Arms has it for 50 cent less; undercut gun sales, on Gunbroker, has it for $1 less per box
 
5. How do they compare to traditional lay-outs? I've seen Australian and British SAS using M4s instead of their militaries' bullpups.
spec op players have always used whatever they wanted...you'll often see them using the AK platform also
Click to expand...

And there you have it. Given the choice, serious shooters go for traditional layouts. One reason that immediately comes to mind is the manual of arms for malfunction drills. With a standard design, you generally don't have to move the weapon too far out of firing position to clear the most common malfunctions. I've practiced malfunction drills with a left hand AUG and it's far more awkward than with an AR, Sig or H&K. Reloads are easier with a standard layout too, but that may just be because I haven't used a bullpup that much.
 
I would love to know where this is. And if it was really cheaper than .223 i think there would be more chamberings and it wouldn't be hard to find as it is.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by more chamberings? More rifles in that caliber. 5.7 is a proprietary rd owned by FN and can't be chambered in another platform without FN's approval.
 
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