Bush is not on your side.
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Feanaro
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You can draw your line if you want but I would merely like to know who you would vote for if you felt the "line" had been crossed? A Democrat? Would you be any better off? We can't sit on our butts and let the Republicans get away with doing nothing but what do you propose we do?
spartacus2002
Member
world war 3 a few years earlier maybe. who knows. suprise suprise both the main parties front runner are bonesman.
I understand why many vote for the lesser of two evils. I used to do the same thing. I think most of the people voting for Republicans or Democrats have good intentions. I think when we vote for evil, even if it's a lesser evil, it affects us, though. Maybe subconsciously.
I understand the third parties have little chance of winning. I don't believe it's impossible, though. If it's meant to happen, it will.
I need to be true to myself when I vote, even if it's not popular. I think there's more to it than just the numbers. Our attitudes and feelings toward these things affects us all, on a spiritual level, in ways we may not fully understand or appreciate.
I understand the third parties have little chance of winning. I don't believe it's impossible, though. If it's meant to happen, it will.
I need to be true to myself when I vote, even if it's not popular. I think there's more to it than just the numbers. Our attitudes and feelings toward these things affects us all, on a spiritual level, in ways we may not fully understand or appreciate.
Your right, turtle, naturally.
Everyone is supposed to vote how they feel on an issue by issue basis, thats how this republic is supposed to work. Unfortunately, unless you can convince everyone to do that, it would just be like voting for Nader: Tossing your vote out the window.
Humanity seems to have an irritating pack mentality, where being part of the crowd feels so much better then standing alone.
Everyone is supposed to vote how they feel on an issue by issue basis, thats how this republic is supposed to work. Unfortunately, unless you can convince everyone to do that, it would just be like voting for Nader: Tossing your vote out the window.
Humanity seems to have an irritating pack mentality, where being part of the crowd feels so much better then standing alone.
Any president who made The USA (un)Patriot Act the law does not deserve to be reelected. Lots of people here (and I agree) think one of the main purposes of the RKBA is to assure that the people could not be forced into a tyranny. The guns are usually the first thing to go when tyranny starts.
However, GWB had made sure to weaken most of the BOR!
NO more freedom of speech, religion, or being able to keep the government in check!
NO more right to due process!
We now live in a country where "The Leader" can have you arrested indefinitly, without a trial, and without having to justify it to anyone!
The day they come to take the guns is too late for a revolution!
Election days were meant so we could have peaceful revolutions every four years.
Join the next revolution!
Do not follow the crowd! (a lemming once told me this)
The round and round arguement about throwing your vote away, or voting for a party that will get elected, is pure insanity. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results... you just may be crazy!:banghead:
However, GWB had made sure to weaken most of the BOR!
NO more freedom of speech, religion, or being able to keep the government in check!
NO more right to due process!
We now live in a country where "The Leader" can have you arrested indefinitly, without a trial, and without having to justify it to anyone!
The day they come to take the guns is too late for a revolution!
Election days were meant so we could have peaceful revolutions every four years.
Join the next revolution!
Do not follow the crowd! (a lemming once told me this)
The round and round arguement about throwing your vote away, or voting for a party that will get elected, is pure insanity. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results... you just may be crazy!:banghead:
I don't think voting for a third party, if that's what you feel is best, is throwing your vote away. Even if they don't win, your actions benefit your soul.
It's interesting how many people don't think their vote counts for much, but they still feel the need to vote for the lesser of two evils.
[edited to remove inappropriate murder/rape analogy]
We make the same choice over and over again in life, not just when we vote. And it seems we're programmed to choose the lesser of two evils. Do we even see the third option anymore?
It's interesting how many people don't think their vote counts for much, but they still feel the need to vote for the lesser of two evils.
[edited to remove inappropriate murder/rape analogy]
We make the same choice over and over again in life, not just when we vote. And it seems we're programmed to choose the lesser of two evils. Do we even see the third option anymore?
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No, he won't.
ANd who will they replace him with? Kerry? How does that help?
Face facts. If Bush does not win re-election then we have a Democrat in office. No other party can get the support needed to put a candidate there.
Millions of gun owners are indifferent. Millions of gun owners aren't politically active. Millions of gun owners support "sensible" gun control.
Millions of gun owners don't vote.
Yes. But better than the alternative...No?
Turtle,
I am thrilled that your soul is content, but I have the unforntunate task of living in a world with political realities. Idealism is great, untill it is trounced by the reality of decisions we make. Vote your conscience because I will do the same and my soul will never be content with a Democrat in the White House.
By the way, a little over the top in comparing voting choice with rape and murder. Classy touch.
B
I am thrilled that your soul is content, but I have the unforntunate task of living in a world with political realities. Idealism is great, untill it is trounced by the reality of decisions we make. Vote your conscience because I will do the same and my soul will never be content with a Democrat in the White House.
By the way, a little over the top in comparing voting choice with rape and murder. Classy touch.
B
Bush has said (once) that he will sign an AWB renewal if if reaches his desk. This forces the House and Senate to take a stand and vote any such renewal bill up or down. Many can't risk a straight-up vote before the current AWB sunsets, so any new AWB will not see the light of day before September 14. If Bush had said he would veto it, it would be political fodder (much stronger than we see here on THR) for 1+ years leading up to the election, and it would allow the Senate and Congress to let a Bill come up for a vote knowing it will hit a Bush veto.
This doesn't mean that OUR fight is over. Senate Bill 1805 was not a win -- we were rope-a-doped. Keep pressuring Bush, your congress critters and your local politicians to fight any new gun control laws ON THEIR WATCH. Educate as many of your friends as possible that the AWB is a ban on "SEMI-AUTOs" and "Auto-loaders", not "machine guns" or "assault rifles".
USAFNoDAk mentioned that Bush should use his bully pulpit to hold up an AR15 and a mini-14. This would be great, but it would likely be political suicide given the level of weapons understanding by your basic sheeple PLUS the organization efforts of the antis.
The gun culture is intimidating and scary to most newbies. Just look at the attitudes of the staff at many (not all) gunshops. I think the majority of Americans are really fence-sitters, but they learn their anti-rhetoric from the gun-unfriendly media based in NY and LA. Most people don't learn proper gun handling and marksmanship from their family anymore.
WE all need to build a grassroots RKBA movement based on taking new folks to the range.
This doesn't mean that OUR fight is over. Senate Bill 1805 was not a win -- we were rope-a-doped. Keep pressuring Bush, your congress critters and your local politicians to fight any new gun control laws ON THEIR WATCH. Educate as many of your friends as possible that the AWB is a ban on "SEMI-AUTOs" and "Auto-loaders", not "machine guns" or "assault rifles".
USAFNoDAk mentioned that Bush should use his bully pulpit to hold up an AR15 and a mini-14. This would be great, but it would likely be political suicide given the level of weapons understanding by your basic sheeple PLUS the organization efforts of the antis.
The gun culture is intimidating and scary to most newbies. Just look at the attitudes of the staff at many (not all) gunshops. I think the majority of Americans are really fence-sitters, but they learn their anti-rhetoric from the gun-unfriendly media based in NY and LA. Most people don't learn proper gun handling and marksmanship from their family anymore.
WE all need to build a grassroots RKBA movement based on taking new folks to the range.
I don't think Turtle is over the top, I think he makes a very good point.
Our country was founded on Idealism, but that spirit was lost somewhere along the way.
Our country was founded on Idealism, but that spirit was lost somewhere along the way.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Without a doubt the Democrats have the lead in anti-gun legislation. They are the enemy.
George W. Bush needs to remove the AWB as a hammer from the Democrats. He tells the world he will sign it, knowing full well that the warning (forewarned is forearmed) will prevent the legislation from ever reaching his desk. IMO, he would sign it, but in his heart he doesn't really want to sign it.
He wanted the "Gun Liability Bill" as a clean bill because he really wanted to sign it. Hanging the AWB around it's neck ensured it's death either in the Senate as has happened or in conference if it made it that far; but if it had for whatever reason been passed, he would have signed it -- just like he said he would.
My opinion is that W knows the AWB will never reach his desk, so he feels safe in telling all the anti-gun folks he will sign it. It needs to get by Tom Delay and that will never happen.
Patriot Act is another issue. But if you think allowing Kerry and a Democratic AG to have the Patriot Act would be a better option ... Has the Patriot Act been extended, or did Patriot Act 2 pass or die? I find references to PA2 but no where do I find a vote. Did it just die?
Without a doubt the Democrats have the lead in anti-gun legislation. They are the enemy.
George W. Bush needs to remove the AWB as a hammer from the Democrats. He tells the world he will sign it, knowing full well that the warning (forewarned is forearmed) will prevent the legislation from ever reaching his desk. IMO, he would sign it, but in his heart he doesn't really want to sign it.
He wanted the "Gun Liability Bill" as a clean bill because he really wanted to sign it. Hanging the AWB around it's neck ensured it's death either in the Senate as has happened or in conference if it made it that far; but if it had for whatever reason been passed, he would have signed it -- just like he said he would.
My opinion is that W knows the AWB will never reach his desk, so he feels safe in telling all the anti-gun folks he will sign it. It needs to get by Tom Delay and that will never happen.
Patriot Act is another issue. But if you think allowing Kerry and a Democratic AG to have the Patriot Act would be a better option ... Has the Patriot Act been extended, or did Patriot Act 2 pass or die? I find references to PA2 but no where do I find a vote. Did it just die?
Downhill Slide
We are in a downhill slide into a European type of Socialism{ not a type where the government owns everything,but a type where the government controls everything}.
The Dems. speed this process up and the Reps. slow it down
NEITHER SEEM TO WANT TO STOP IT!!!!!!!
We are in a downhill slide into a European type of Socialism{ not a type where the government owns everything,but a type where the government controls everything}.
The Dems. speed this process up and the Reps. slow it down
NEITHER SEEM TO WANT TO STOP IT!!!!!!!
Greg Bell:
Government IS a necessary evil. We'd like to keep it to a minimum if possible. I don't see either major party trying to do that whole hog. The Repubs have traditionally been the "grow govt. slower" party, while the Dems are "make it big and make it big, fast" party. Two evils.
What do we do? Grass roots is one method to try and stem the tide. I think this was the original magic behind the Deaniacs, but eventually the media and the Democratic Party Elite made sure he flamed out. He didn't help himself either, which was a good thing.
Third parties can at times make the two major parties sit up and take notice, (Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, Jesse Ventura), but there has not been a third party stong enough to keep either of the two major parties from controlling things, and moving down the "govt. is good" road. What do we do?
Government IS a necessary evil. We'd like to keep it to a minimum if possible. I don't see either major party trying to do that whole hog. The Repubs have traditionally been the "grow govt. slower" party, while the Dems are "make it big and make it big, fast" party. Two evils.
What do we do? Grass roots is one method to try and stem the tide. I think this was the original magic behind the Deaniacs, but eventually the media and the Democratic Party Elite made sure he flamed out. He didn't help himself either, which was a good thing.
Third parties can at times make the two major parties sit up and take notice, (Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, Jesse Ventura), but there has not been a third party stong enough to keep either of the two major parties from controlling things, and moving down the "govt. is good" road. What do we do?
Know I KNOW we're in deep chit when i get on this gun owner forum and see many here stating they are going to vote for the gungrabbers..
I expect the fine-stine followers to vote for Kerry but not any of us gun people.
WRONG!
I expect the fine-stine followers to vote for Kerry but not any of us gun people.
WRONG!
You are right ....I heard he is working with Hillary and they are both Commie pinko double naught spies.
Maybe the scenario I described was a bad choice. I didn't mean to compare a person's choice for a vote to rape/murder. I don't think it's at the same level. The point I was trying to make is that there are other times in life where we follow similar logic.
It's easy to be idealistic when there's no or little cost. Who knows what choice we'll make when the cost is high, until we're faced with it? It's not easy, and it might not seem so clear-cut.
If you're stuck in a pit, and your lesser of two evil choices won't get you out, wouldn't a third choice that would get you out be better? Even if it's a fight against the odds? Perhaps making the "third choice" will allow the greater evil more control if you fail. Either way, you're still stuck in the pit if you can't find a way out.
If you think Bush is going to get you out of that pit, maybe he's a good choice. I don't think he will.
Maybe Bush will slow your descent, but what's the point of that? To buy more time? Do you think a better way out will present itself at some point in the future, and that time you bought will make a difference?
There are still some good men with integrity that believe in our constitution that are willing to fight against the odds for us. I think I'll stand with them.
It's easy to be idealistic when there's no or little cost. Who knows what choice we'll make when the cost is high, until we're faced with it? It's not easy, and it might not seem so clear-cut.
If you're stuck in a pit, and your lesser of two evil choices won't get you out, wouldn't a third choice that would get you out be better? Even if it's a fight against the odds? Perhaps making the "third choice" will allow the greater evil more control if you fail. Either way, you're still stuck in the pit if you can't find a way out.
If you think Bush is going to get you out of that pit, maybe he's a good choice. I don't think he will.
Maybe Bush will slow your descent, but what's the point of that? To buy more time? Do you think a better way out will present itself at some point in the future, and that time you bought will make a difference?
There are still some good men with integrity that believe in our constitution that are willing to fight against the odds for us. I think I'll stand with them.
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