Bushy v DPMS?

[SwampWolf]

To the op: either brand you cited will work just fine. Be advised, however, that there is a certain poster who haunts the AR-15 threads, looking to drop into the discussions but only so that he can disparage the brands most people buy and to espouse the brands (read Colt and other "high-end", semi-custom jobs only the well-heeled can afford) that he, the AR Guru, anoints. He typically will cite many anecdotal sources ( I experienced this; they reported that; all the experts say this; experienced armorers say that; gunsmiths say this; gunshop owners say that, and so on, ad nauseam) to support his claims. When this self-appointed expert is asked to provide hard-core, empirical evidence showing where specific brands out-perform other specific brands and in which specific ways, well, don't hold your breath.

The truth is many, if not most, of the major brands build and sell rifles that will meet and surpass the needs and wants of 99% of their buyers. Will more money buy more rifle? Well, though not always, in many cases, yes. How much more rifle and how much more rifle will make any difference to the user is a question only the individual buyer can answer. But it does a disservice to common sense and reality for someone to make blanket statements demeaning the merits of rifle makers such as DPMS, Bushmaster, Stag, RRA and others without providing real evidence proving said allegations.

 

[Zerodefect]

Just hashing this out with ya, not criticizing your. From what I've read, used and study. Any thing under 16 inches is ballistically the kiss of death for the 5.56 unless all your TGTs are under 300 meters. It's a bad choice for a conventional battle rifle, which it's been used for. It's intended use was for special operators, mostly reconnaissance and recovery missions but it did give some fire power when decisively engaged if compromised. They ran in to the short barrel problem with the SCAR 16, why they used a 13 inch barrel and at the last minute decided they needed new ammo for it to be effective?
(if I had a choice and had to stick with military issue I would take the M16A4, other wise the H&K 416 would be my choice).
They are now turning them in and staying with the 7.62 SCAR. As far as the twist rate, well 1X9 is more versatile then 1X7 and most departments issue 55 grain to their officers that are qualified to carry a rifle. I'm sure DPMS wasn't marketing the military with the operator model.
I agree with you on the two stage trigger...it's BS on anything tactical other the maybe a designated marksmen rifle. I want reliability and not some finicky trigger that might break or go out of adjustment. I would say that 90% of us couldn't out shoot a factory trigger to begin with. I also agree with you on the hand guard issue. I like full length for fitting tacticool gear. I also perfer a Aim point but see a lot of both on range queens and bonifide operators guns.

I agree completely.

A 14.5" is best up to 300yds. Which is plenty for most defensive carbines in most areas. Can allways step up to a 14.5" in 6.8spcII to fix that though. I tend to stick with 16".


I use 62gn and up for defense, but at close range it's really not going to matter If I use 55gn. Just need to know how much my zero changes between the two . I can shoot 55gn ok, but can't go below 55gn. Though I don't know why anyone would anyway.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

I believe Azzizza did a pretty good job of pointing out the differences between higher end AR's and their low end counterparts. He also did a fine job describing the merits of differents manufacturing processes, and the effect on overall performance.

Here's my question, how do you justify buying a low end AR, (DPMS, Bushmaster, etc) when you can purchase an AR with better components (Spikes, BCM, LMT) for the same or LESS money?

Right now a complete upper from top tier mfrs can be had for under $500. It blows my mind how some folks will buy a gun with a reputation for being cheap even if it isn't.

 

[SSN Vet]

Between those two, I'd get the Bushmaster....

Just personal preference.

I have a close friend who's son works there and reports that they are a great company to work for.

 

[Rebel2345]

Right now a complete upper from top tier mfrs can be had for under $500. It blows my mind how some folks will buy a gun with a reputation for being cheap even if it isn't.

Please, list these $500 uppers. I will gladly buy one when I go to build my second AR.



This is what I was told by my neighbor, who's been collecting and shooting for the last two decades- "If you're the kind of shooter who's just buying it to have fun with, you're not going to notice the $400 difference, except you'll be out $400 you could have spent on ammo."

He let me shoot a couple of his rifles, and I ended up getting the DPMS Lo Pro because it was in my price range, and I planned on using it as target/hunting duty, not defense. I don't expect to have 200 raging Ruskies busting down my door any time soon, so my go to bump-in-the-night firearm is my .45. I could go on about why I think picking up a long gun for such a situation is idiotic, but I could care less what others reasons are really.

He owns something like 16 different AR's in a few different calibers, consisting of Colt's, Daniels, Bushy's, DPMS', some he built that I don't know the composition of, and two that I didn't even bother touching because they looked too expensive. He owns three different DPMS's, a Lo Pro, LAR-308, and one of their light barrel A3 models. His A3 "workhorse" has over 5,000 rounds through it, and the only malfunction its had was not returning to battery when he was torturing it to see what it could do, and didn't oil it for something near 2,000 rounds.

My personal opinion on this whole matter - Yes, if you think your life will someday depend on your rifle, and you'll be holding the line against some invading force and will be firing off 500 rounds per minute Spend the money on something that supposedly has zero chance of failing. Quoting my neighbor, if you're the kind if person who is just going to have fun with it shooting MAYBE 1,000 rounds per year, you'll likely never notice a difference between the $1,200 rifle and the $800 rifle.

 

[jem375]

Finally a couple of posters with common sense.

 

[kimberkid]

Right now a complete upper from top tier mfrs can be had for under $500. It blows my mind how some folks will buy a gun with a reputation for being cheap even if it isn't.

Please, list these $500 uppers.

Yes ... please.

 

[DirtyHarry31]

Quote from Kurt D:
First not everyone needs a Colt, Noveske, what ever. Colt does test all of their parts to "mil specs" but without knowing failure rates we don't know how big a deal this is. All the others you're paying for name and a pretty finish.

I agree with the statement "not everyone needs a Colt, Noveske, what ever". My stepson is happy with his RRA M4. He will never use it enough to "wear" it out. But what failure rates has to do with it I do not know. Testing is done to assure quality to reduce the rifle's problems in the field. I have found owning different makers ARs that the HP & MP tested parts performed better then the standard parts.
Would the AR work being slightly "out of spec", yes.

Quote from Kurt D:
Fourth if you haven't figured it out ALL AR builders get their parts from the same places. Even Colt, Bushy, etc who actually machine their own parts do still use subcontracters like CMT for parts like bolts, carriers, receivers, etc. Yes that's right, the same bolt that's in a Stag can be found in a Bushy, Colt, S&W, Noveske... at a premium of course.

This statement is true about where AR Builders get their parts from but not accurate as far as having the "same" bolt or other part as a more expensive rifle this may hold true for some AR companies but not all. I would term the AR platform as cooking a meal. It's the seasoning/ingrediences/time you add that makes it better. The AR platform can be put together with a variety of quality parts but it's the tolerancing of parts with the voodoo of how to assemble can give you a reasonable shooter with reasonable accuracy or an all out rifle that no matter where you point it you would hit the mark dead on every time. A part that has an "acceptable" tolerance for your common AR rifle might not fit the specs of some of these more expensive rifle companies quality standards. Does the tolerancing of parts or the voodoo of how to assemble, I say YES as Kurt D says in his last statement.

Quote from Kurt D:
In the OP I'd opt for the Bushy. Chances are for a M4gery it'll have the correct profile barrel made of the correct steel, 4150, and have chrome in the right places. I also like the rollmark better. Yes, it really comes down to that. I don't buy complete ARs anymore and only build them b/c I like to save a few $$ and put the guts I want in them.


I have owned (1) Colt, (1) Bushy, (2) RRA, (1) LMT, (1) Noveske. All guns were great with no problems from any of them. Owned an AR rifle platform now for over 25 years. I currently only own the Noveske Reece Lite 16" Middy. Got rid of the others for various reasons like the Colt HB Competition (stupidity), the Bushy (not into varmiting, Clinton rifle), the RRA (1st carbines, learned in mid-stream about "Middies"), LMT (taken/given to my son, "middy" target rifle). What I did find with owning all these different rifles is that I found my dream AR (Noveske) that does everything I want and makes me look like a sniper. BTW I bought the upper complete, a strpped lower, & my choice of guts, added the floating tube to gain accuracy. You get what you pay for. Quality, Warrantee, and proven performance was my choices for my AR. As mentioned by others on this post that the true testing ground are the Tactical Training Classes. Check out what the top AR guys who run these classes say about failures of brands. Added note, buy an inexpensive AR and be happy. Start to build it up to perform better and the question should be "should have I just bought the better rifle and spare the cost of "upgrading"?

 

[againstthagrane]

Handgun hunter,

My DD build cost $1100 for the upper alone. The dpms was 860 complete. The DD damn well better be more reliable. The point I'm getting at is just because one is better, doesn't make the other worthless.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Originally Posted by Rebel2345
Please, list these $500 uppers

Here ya go. I purchased the lightweight 16" Spikes. Fantastic upper. The whole thing cost $135 LESS than againstthagrane's DPMS.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XSTU5025&groupid=55

Here's the one from from Spikes Tactical fellas. BCM's website has the other one.

Sorry, it looks like the M4 is sold out, didn't check the lightweight though. Don't sit on your hands when you find good deals.

Update: called AIM, should have them back in stock soon.

Here is BCM's minus bcg, ch hg's. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

To the op: either brand you cited will work just fine. Be advised, however, that there is a certain poster who haunts the AR-15 threads, looking to drop into the discussions but only so that he can disparage the brands most people buy and to espouse the brands (read Colt and other "high-end", semi-custom jobs only the well-heeled can afford) that he, the AR Guru, anoints. He typically will cite many anecdotal sources ( I experienced this; they reported that; all the experts say this; experienced armorers say that; gunsmiths say this; gunshop owners say that, and so on, ad nauseam) to support his claims. When this self-appointed expert is asked to provide hard-core, empirical evidence showing where specific brands out-perform other specific brands and in which specific ways, well, don't hold your breath.

This pretty much sums it up......Welcome to The High Road!

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Again, read Azissa's earlier post for factual evidence of high end mfr's producing superior quality components.

Unfortunately those folks whom justify purchasing a low end AR because they aren't Spec ops, or depending on it for their lives are fooling themselves. I listed several options for top tier products at elcheapo prices, prices quite frankly rivaling or even LESS than low end AR components (DPMS BUSHY). It sounds like its just a bunch of guys are secretly felling like they made a poor decision and are trying to justify it.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Nope made my purchases for a reason. The GD guns work just fine. Why don't you and Azizza loosen your sphincters about all of this. You guys remind me of half the salesmen at gun shops that I no longer frequent. Your word is fact! Nothing else matters! Like I said if a Bushmaster is good enough for a cop to carry in his trunk......Its good enough for me.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Local PD's make their decisions based on politics and lowest bidder as well. Lowest bidder is definitely NOT good enough for me.

 

[kwelz]

500 Dollar upper. Well actually $520 when you add a Bolt/CH. but it is also one of the best on the market.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm

I think HGUNHNTR has a point. A lot of people are trying to justify spending the same money on a lesser brand. It is human nature, and it is understandable. That doesn't mean you they are correct however.

As I have stated, I used to fall into that category. All my guns were DPMS/RRA/Bushy. I made a lot of excuses for the problems they had. I would say things like. Oh yeah I had this problem but CS fixed it! Hey any brand can fail! The Fit and finish is great though right?

Well CS may have fixed it but the problems should never have been there. Any brand can fail. Some fail a lot more often than other though. And Fit and Finish don't mean squat if the gun isn't up to par.

These were all very expensive lessons that I learned. I could have saved myself a lot of time and money by not buying junk to start with. I could have saved some if I would have learned after the first couple problems. I didn't, I was stubborn and had convinced myself that parts are parts and good enough is good enough. But the cold hard facts of this are that parts are not parts and good enough isn't. Not when there is even the slightest chance that some day you will use this gun in a self defense situation.

If you want a gun to put a couple mags down range every year then buy a DPMS, or Bushmaster, or OLY, or RRA, or heck even a Hesse. But if your list of requirements include possibly HD then don't do yourself the disservice of settling for less gun at the same cost.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Lets just say. I'm a loyal and frequent customer. Its mindsets like that, that cause businesses to end up like Circuit City, and Sears.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

^Sorry about the previous comment, not high road. My apologies.

 

[kwelz]

Punisher don't take my word for it. Talk to the people who work in the sandbox, who rely on these tools to survive every day. One of the guys over on M4C is an armorer for a PMC. He has posted photos of broken bolts on Bushmasters, rusted Barrels under the FSB, and numerous other horror stories involving the things he has had to deal with.

If you don't want to do that then ask Pat Roger, Larry Vickers, Chris Costa, or even better Ken Hackathorn. These men are legends for a reason. Any one of them has forgotten more about firearms and shooting than we will ever collectively know. And they will tell you the same thing I have. Except they will not be near as diplomatic as we are.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Azizza who makes BCM upper, barrels, and bolts? Do they make their own in house. If so how can they afford to sell a complete product that cheap and not cut a few corners like others? Do they pay their machinists $8 an hour? They are certainly not union! I've heard mixed reviews on Spikes too. Should that lead me to believe it is a terrible product? I just don't understand all this writing off of brands cause of some bad press. Most of the time when something fails its user error. with guns its lack of taking care of a product. Its easy to not clean a gun...It breaks or fails.....and then say its crap. Now you guys are getting into metal compositions and all this other tech stuff. Well thats all fine and dandy if were taking it to the sandbox! ALL COMPANYS HAVE QUALITY CONTROLL ISSUES! Look at good old Colt/Armalite when they first fielded the m-16 in nam.....How many jams? I don't care what they make. Because at some point greed and money becomes more important that quality. Smaller companys are great to buy from at first......and then the aforementioned mindset kicks in. Its inevitable. I wish it wasn't but thats the new American way, and its sickening! Lastly im not trying to pick on anyone here but these threads really get unbearable when you guys are arguing about tech issues and not simply answering the question.

You know maybe you did answer the question but at this point after reading about 15 post of seemingly arrogant tech posts I've lost track. So the Gun Guru Alchemists used different metal. I don't care. If you keep it clean and it fires a bullet every time you pull the trigger then thats pretty much all that matters. Some of us drive a chevy S10 cause we all can't afford the loaded GMC Sierra.

 

[Zerodefect]

$520 for a BCM middy:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm

 

[Zerodefect]

Azizza who makes BCM upper, barrels, and bolts? Do they make their own in house. If so how can they afford to sell a complete product that cheap and not cut a few corners like others? Do they pay their machinists $8 an hour? They are certainly not union! I've heard mixed reviews on Spikes too. Should that lead me to believe it is a terrible product? I just don't understand all this writing off of brands cause of some bad press. Most of the time when something fails its user error. with guns its lack of taking care of a product. Its easy to not clean a gun...It breaks or fails.....and then say its crap. Now you guys are getting into metal compositions and all this other tech stuff. Well thats all fine and dandy if were taking it to the sandbox! ALL COMPANYS HAVE QUALITY CONTROLL ISSUES! Look at good old Colt/Armalite when they first fielded the m-16 in nam.....How many jams? I don't care what they make. Because at some point greed and money becomes more important that quality. Smaller companys are great to buy from at first......and then the aforementioned mindset kicks in. Its inevitable. I wish it wasn't but thats the new American way, and its sickening! Lastly im not trying to pick on anyone here but these threads really get unbearable when you guys are arguing about tech issues and not simply answering the question.

You know maybe you did answer the question but at this point after reading about 15 post of seemingly arrogant tech posts I've lost track. So the Gun Guru Alchemists used different metal. I don't care. If you keep it clean and it fires a bullet every time you pull the trigger then thats pretty much all that matters. Some of us drive a chevy S10 cause we all can't afford the loaded GMC Sierra.

They've had some bugs just like everyone else. But they took care of it quickly.

BCM guards there vender sources. Smart, because such info cause an E storm every time it gets out. If you've torn down enough AR's you can see some majik markings that may clue you in to where certain parts come from.
But I can't find any fault in any of the components I've bought from them.

I'd be happy to trade my Colt 6920 upper for a BCM 14.5" middy BFH.

My BCM Mk12 Mod 3x SPR came without a scratch. Best looking ramps I've ever seen, matched to the upper perfectly. DD 14" rail perfectly straight. A2 flash hider timed perfect. Solid looking BCG and really cool long charging handle. Best quality build I've witnessed yet.

Just trying to save ya'll some heart ache and steer ya towards the good stuff. I not particularly brand loyal.

 

[Bovice]

All this AR elitism is disgusting. If you wanna talk that way, go back to BARFCOM where you came from. Don't pollute this place with your waste. And since when are you all metallurgists? You're only spewing crap that you've read or heard someone else say, you haven't really experienced the materials yourselves.

Really, shut up guys.

 

[Zerodefect]

Who are you talking to?

What deos being a metal linguist have to do with anything. LOLz.

 

[kwelz]

Nevermind. I give up. Some people just don't care and that isn't my problem.

 

[Mags]

I think the point out of the last few pages is why pay more for a DPMS/Bushy when you can get a BCM, Spike's or LMT for the same money.

BTW I own a DPMS, Bushy and an Armalite with a DTI upper. The DPMS is a 308 and is built well, the Armalite works great, but the Bushy had to have all the innards replaced with BCM and it runs fine now. I have owned a RRA and it was accurate but I had some problems with the ejection port hinge pin and theirr CS was non existent. I also owned a Colt that had an improperly staked gas key!

There you go first hand experience with all the big brands.

Anyone want to buy a Bushmaster bolt and carrier?