Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Uh, yes, and I think that's why the OP posted, to illustrate how he screwed up, even while using the layered safety practices we all know and love.
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But... It wasn't loaded!
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Schwing
Member
I know very well that I screwed up. I also know that the other layers of safety I followed prevented an issue, which is why we follow them in the first place.
My entire motivation in sharing this was not to solicit safety tips from strangers of unknown experience. It was to drive home the point that we can still make mistakes which is why EVERY safety rule is necessary at all times.
As far as berating goes, I don't mind. If being willing to admit my mistake helps someone else be more vigilant, I'm good. If a public admission doesn't drive the point home, I'm sure that a good berating from a stranger on the internet will properly shame me
My entire motivation in sharing this was not to solicit safety tips from strangers of unknown experience. It was to drive home the point that we can still make mistakes which is why EVERY safety rule is necessary at all times.
As far as berating goes, I don't mind. If being willing to admit my mistake helps someone else be more vigilant, I'm good. If a public admission doesn't drive the point home, I'm sure that a good berating from a stranger on the internet will properly shame me
Not IF but WHEN
Thank you Schwing for relating the circumstances of your ND. You've done all of us a service, by giving us a chance to consider our practices and safety mindset.
I have made mistakes too and was thankful that the layered approach to safety prevented injury or property damage.
I agree saying that human beings are prone to distraction and error doesn't excuse the mistakes we do. What your thread does is reinforce the real benefits of our layered approach to safety.
It really isn't a matter of if but when.
Thank you.
Thank you Schwing for relating the circumstances of your ND. You've done all of us a service, by giving us a chance to consider our practices and safety mindset.
I have made mistakes too and was thankful that the layered approach to safety prevented injury or property damage.
I agree saying that human beings are prone to distraction and error doesn't excuse the mistakes we do. What your thread does is reinforce the real benefits of our layered approach to safety.
It really isn't a matter of if but when.
Thank you.
Coyote3855
Member
He made a mistake. He shared his experience on a public forum so perhaps others could learn from it. No need to continue to beat on him. Glass houses and all that. I assume no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. Some are more costly than others. This one was cheap because he followed the four rules.
Field Tester
Member
I disagree. I hear this quite often, but I still disagree. The only unintended discharge I've had was a firearms malfunction from a rented gun and stuck firing pin. I had the shotgun pointed in a safe direction and received a slam fire on my first clay.
I immediately stopped and punished myself and dropped out of the round. I kept playing in my head over and over again what I did wrong. I was completely sure my finger was off the trigger.
20 min later after beating myself up I tried again and could not chamber. Someone took a look at the shotgun, took it apart and showed me it infact that it wasn't my fault. Following the other rules probably saved someone from a hospital trip.
I've been shooting 10 years and never have had a ND. I think that is from proper training and people like the OP constantly reminding me to be vigilant. OP I appreciate you sharing and reminding us why we have the 4 rules. I also appreciate everyone else sharing their stories. Because of them I am able to learn by example and not through experience.
But no, it is NOT a matter of WHEN, it IS a matter of IF.
I'll disagree further to drive a point home.
If you get the mindset of "it can't happen to me", you've entered the realm of complacency.
When you enter the realm of complacency, it DOES become a matter of "When, not if."
You *always* exercise all of the rules, because if you get complacent or nonchalant about handling a firearm, bad things can happen.
My Uncle Kevin got complacent, nonchalant, and even cocky about it.
He's dead now. Killed himself on accident one night carrying his gun to bed. Stumbled, reached to catch himself with the gun hand, it twisted, finger went in to the guard as it twisted, and he put a round through his aorta, severing it. He had time to say one thing to my aunt before expiring in front of her and their two boys.
I had to clean up the mess after the Sheriff's office unsealed their house after the investigation.
This isn't basket weaving or a game of checkers.
If you screw up, your remaining life span, or that of someone you love, might be measured in seconds.
So, don't get the mindset of it "can't happen to me", or "I'm too good for that", or "I'm not that dumb", or "that happens to less educated people".
If you get the mindset of "it can't happen to me", you've entered the realm of complacency.
When you enter the realm of complacency, it DOES become a matter of "When, not if."
You *always* exercise all of the rules, because if you get complacent or nonchalant about handling a firearm, bad things can happen.
My Uncle Kevin got complacent, nonchalant, and even cocky about it.
He's dead now. Killed himself on accident one night carrying his gun to bed. Stumbled, reached to catch himself with the gun hand, it twisted, finger went in to the guard as it twisted, and he put a round through his aorta, severing it. He had time to say one thing to my aunt before expiring in front of her and their two boys.
I had to clean up the mess after the Sheriff's office unsealed their house after the investigation.
This isn't basket weaving or a game of checkers.
If you screw up, your remaining life span, or that of someone you love, might be measured in seconds.
So, don't get the mindset of it "can't happen to me", or "I'm too good for that", or "I'm not that dumb", or "that happens to less educated people".
NoVA Shooter
Member
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I think there is a difference between ‘it can’t happen to me’ (which is a denial mindset) and ‘it won’t happen to me’ (which is an affirmative mindset). I agree that the mindset that ‘it can’t happen’ is very dangerous and can lead to becoming complacent. I can’t say that I’ve been shooting as long or as much as many people here, but in 10 years of active shooting, I have never had an AD/ND. And to be honest, I only know of one person (personally) that has ever had an ND. Am I saying it CAN never happen to me? Of course not, but I’m not going to reside myself to the notion that it WILL happen. A ND is something that is 100% avoidable, and because of that, I do not hold to the ‘it’s not a matter of if, but when’ philosophy. I prefer the ‘it can happen, but I won’t let it happen’ philosophy.
Outlaw Man
Member
The beauty of the Four Rules is that if you have a momentary lapse of judgement or miss that cartridge in the gun, you'll have a lot of scared and concerned people, but you shouldn't have anyone hurt. (Not knowing your target's foreground and background is an exception).
However, complacency or complete disregard for one of the rules can have disastrous effects when your momentary lapse of judgement causes you to break a second rule.
Because you otherwise handled the gun safely, no one was ever in any serious danger. Now, if you had grabbed it to show a buddy or started cramming it haphazardly into tour range bag, it could have been a bad day on top of a learning experience.
Thankfully, it was just a learning experience. Hopefully, we can all learn from it.
However, complacency or complete disregard for one of the rules can have disastrous effects when your momentary lapse of judgement causes you to break a second rule.
Because you otherwise handled the gun safely, no one was ever in any serious danger. Now, if you had grabbed it to show a buddy or started cramming it haphazardly into tour range bag, it could have been a bad day on top of a learning experience.
Thankfully, it was just a learning experience. Hopefully, we can all learn from it.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Hell Schwing, I'll take some of the heat off you and share one of my own pants wetting learning moments.
Every employee we hire, we do a basic safety inspection of their sidearm to make sure that amongst other things, it's not a water gun with electric tape wrapped around it (that's a story for another time). Anywho, I'm in Florida with a team opening the new office, so lot's of new people to process. Not much time to waste. New hires are told to bring in their firearm unloaded and they are asked when they present the firearm to the inspector if it's unloaded. Well, somewhere along the way, the "slides or actions open when you show up" portion of the instruction got left by the wayside and as long as the employee candidate said the firearm was empty and there wasn't a magazine sticking out, the inspection started.
Well, on this one particular firearm, the person doing the inspection picked up the firearm, yanked open the slide and locked it without really looking at the firearm. He didn't notice at the time that a 9mm case tumbled out of the grip when he did so. He did comment though on how absolutely nasty the inside of the gun was and caught my attention when he asked how the prospective employee had managed to get unburned powder inside the action. "Huh, that's an odd one" I thinks to myself. So, I meander on over to take a look at the gun myself. And boy was it dirty. There must have been five or six grains of unburned powder in there. *head scratch* I ran the slide a few times to make sure the garbage in there wasn't binding the gun up... and a bullet fell out of the chamber.
Long story short, the prospective employee had in fact handed the inspector a firearm that was loaded. It just happened to be loaded with some of the worst hand loads I have ever seen. When the inspector ran the slide, it pulled the case off the bullet, leaving the bullet in the chamber and dumping the powder out.
Gun was given back to prospect, prospect was told to get lost and never come back. "Holy Hell, did that just happen" stares were exchanged. Rules no longer get forgotten.
Every employee we hire, we do a basic safety inspection of their sidearm to make sure that amongst other things, it's not a water gun with electric tape wrapped around it (that's a story for another time). Anywho, I'm in Florida with a team opening the new office, so lot's of new people to process. Not much time to waste. New hires are told to bring in their firearm unloaded and they are asked when they present the firearm to the inspector if it's unloaded. Well, somewhere along the way, the "slides or actions open when you show up" portion of the instruction got left by the wayside and as long as the employee candidate said the firearm was empty and there wasn't a magazine sticking out, the inspection started.
Well, on this one particular firearm, the person doing the inspection picked up the firearm, yanked open the slide and locked it without really looking at the firearm. He didn't notice at the time that a 9mm case tumbled out of the grip when he did so. He did comment though on how absolutely nasty the inside of the gun was and caught my attention when he asked how the prospective employee had managed to get unburned powder inside the action. "Huh, that's an odd one" I thinks to myself. So, I meander on over to take a look at the gun myself. And boy was it dirty. There must have been five or six grains of unburned powder in there. *head scratch* I ran the slide a few times to make sure the garbage in there wasn't binding the gun up... and a bullet fell out of the chamber.
Long story short, the prospective employee had in fact handed the inspector a firearm that was loaded. It just happened to be loaded with some of the worst hand loads I have ever seen. When the inspector ran the slide, it pulled the case off the bullet, leaving the bullet in the chamber and dumping the powder out.
Gun was given back to prospect, prospect was told to get lost and never come back. "Holy Hell, did that just happen" stares were exchanged. Rules no longer get forgotten.
Nom de Forum
Member
Perhaps if we had a change in the focus of training we would have fewer "empty guns" fired.
Most people are far more likely to have a negligent discharge than ever fire their pistol in SD. Having to deal with the consequences of a N.D. can be a permanently life altering experience even when no injuries or deaths occur. Maybe we should spend as much time training on how not and when not to fire our guns than how to fire them. This is by the way what is most taught in the CCW courses I have attended. Maybe SD trainers should emphasize it beyond what is needed to conduct a safe range. It will not be as much short term fun as blasting away in SD scenarios but it would better in the long term for all gun owners.
Most people are far more likely to have a negligent discharge than ever fire their pistol in SD. Having to deal with the consequences of a N.D. can be a permanently life altering experience even when no injuries or deaths occur. Maybe we should spend as much time training on how not and when not to fire our guns than how to fire them. This is by the way what is most taught in the CCW courses I have attended. Maybe SD trainers should emphasize it beyond what is needed to conduct a safe range. It will not be as much short term fun as blasting away in SD scenarios but it would better in the long term for all gun owners.
another_luser
Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2011
- Messages
- 18
Thanks for sharing
Schwing,
Thank you for sharing the story.
I like to read the AD/ND type threads and use the experiences as reminders of what can happen.
I echo Outlaw Man and TwoFifty - having the four rules in mind keeps levels of safety in place even if / when one is overlooked.
I consider events that show the effectiveness of these rules as positive reinforcement that they work.
Schwing,
Thank you for sharing the story.
I like to read the AD/ND type threads and use the experiences as reminders of what can happen.
I echo Outlaw Man and TwoFifty - having the four rules in mind keeps levels of safety in place even if / when one is overlooked.
I consider events that show the effectiveness of these rules as positive reinforcement that they work.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
At face value, these both seem to be signs of complacent mindsets, not that the average person even bothers with distinguishing between "can't" and "won't" when making such a statement.
What about this mindset:
"I don't want it to happen to me!"
This leaves enough cognitive room in one's mind not to take the four rules for granted. It acknowledges that distraction and complacency lurk in the background.
By thinking 'I don't want it to happen to me', we remain alert and attentive.
edit: changed oversight to distraction.
"I don't want it to happen to me!"
This leaves enough cognitive room in one's mind not to take the four rules for granted. It acknowledges that distraction and complacency lurk in the background.
By thinking 'I don't want it to happen to me', we remain alert and attentive.
edit: changed oversight to distraction.
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larry_minn
Member
Unlike some I am not perfect...
Thing is IF you follow the rules a mistake will NOT hurt anyone.
Mine was at range. After action shooting, a nighttime target was set up. Single shooter, no light (ok camp fire 40' behind firing line) moonlight. (for cooking brats)
RO tells me to load, fire two. I grab mag (that I THOUGHT had two rds) I do and slide follows. (had happened as softball rds, my grip was not right) RO tells me to show clear, I remove, pocket mag, lock slide back, show him chamber, he inspects, tells me to close slide, dry fire, holster. (normal commands of this club)
I do and put 3rd rd into target. RO takes blame. He realized he couldn't see well enough, didn't get a flashlight..
Thing is by following rules, nobody gets hurt. Should he have gotten a dim flashlight (in order to check chamber for unfired rd?) Of course. Thing is most flashlights would have ruined night vision for everyone. I had not had it fail to extract rds before...
IMO the important thing is to LEARN from mistakes, esp from mistakes of others.
Thing is IF you follow the rules a mistake will NOT hurt anyone.
Mine was at range. After action shooting, a nighttime target was set up. Single shooter, no light (ok camp fire 40' behind firing line) moonlight. (for cooking brats)
RO tells me to load, fire two. I grab mag (that I THOUGHT had two rds) I do and slide follows. (had happened as softball rds, my grip was not right) RO tells me to show clear, I remove, pocket mag, lock slide back, show him chamber, he inspects, tells me to close slide, dry fire, holster. (normal commands of this club)
I do and put 3rd rd into target. RO takes blame. He realized he couldn't see well enough, didn't get a flashlight..
Thing is by following rules, nobody gets hurt. Should he have gotten a dim flashlight (in order to check chamber for unfired rd?) Of course. Thing is most flashlights would have ruined night vision for everyone. I had not had it fail to extract rds before...
IMO the important thing is to LEARN from mistakes, esp from mistakes of others.
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