Accidental discharge wasn't

[Strykervet]

When I was a kid, we took my uncle hunting. He got a new 870 Wingmaster and was pointing it up --then bang. He "accidentally" pulled the trigger because his finger was on the trigger. He sold the shotgun the next day to my dad. Some people should never own weapons in the first place, and everyone who does should be drilled, not just taught, drilled, in the proper use of a weapon.

I luckily have never had one. And especially not in the army. It is more grievous there than anywhere else, since weapons are carried loaded, and casually at that, at all times. Hell, an AD was a field grade offense (or worse if someone else is involved). It was an AD offense to accidentally discharge a PEQ2 laser too.

But not having one is easier than you think. Just treat all weapons as loaded until YOU check it yourself.

 

[The Don]

I did something like this with a .22S I have. Same setup next to my computer and always dry firing. Well someone used it (and I wont mention that it was my cousin) and did not tell me and left a round in it. Well like you click pop and there went the smoke alarm. Though I still do it I make it a habit to load and unload dummy ammo before and after I dry fire!

 

[Cop Bob]

So Many Incidents over the years....

When you work in a large department you see/hear of so many of theses incidents, both officer and civilian, sometimes with tragic, others with comic results...

Bottom Line, Check, double check, then check again..

One Incident, at the range. An officer was really proud of a trigger job that was just done on his Mod 29. (late 70's) An officer from another agency was visiting, and asked to "see". The gun was unholstered, rounds dumped in the owners hand, and the weapon was handed over to the other officer. Just as his was pulling it through, WHILE POINTED AT THE BELLY OF ANOTHER OFFICER, the owner set the rounds on the table between them. A Range officer then IMMEDIATELY reached across the table and grabbed the cylinder of the pistol. This of course locked the gun up, not allowing further cylinder rotation, and shouted, COUNT THE ROUNDS DAMMIT !!!.. There were five !... when the pistol was opened, the live round was next up... Lesson learned, almost the real hard way.

Another, is one I would still like to figure out.

The Weapon, 1911 Colt Model 70, Cocked, Locked, one in the chamber.
Weapon was placed in the glove compartment of a 1977 Dodge Coronet (sp?). While running down the freeway, weapon secured in the glove compartment, the Dash EXPLODES.. (his words, and I'm sure he was close to right) took out the instrument cluster along with the good time radio.

Later inspection of the pistol, Safety on. Hammer back, discharged round still in chamber. NO firing pin indentation AT ALL, Primer had partially flowed back into the firing pin hole. The police radio was not in use at time of incident. (25watt Motorola, UHF, no additional amplification) don't think that would have done it. There was a large transmission line that crossed the roadway near where the officer stated that it occurred... I am still scratching my head over this one, and it has been about 30 years. Any Ideas?

I said comic results as well, and That would be hard to imagine, so I will explain.

An old "Day Head" shows up at the range to qualify. He sets up, gets his ammo, goes to the line. Unloads his service ammo, and reloads with the range wadcutters. The line goes hot, Targets turn, he raises and fires. CONFETTI .... Little pieces of green confetti all over... we call a cease fire... his eyes are WIDE.... looks like he is about to cry...

Seems as though he had worked an "extra job" a few weeks before, got paid with 3, $50 dollar bills. He wanted to "Hide them from Momma" so he rolled thm up and stuffed them down the bore of his service pistol. While this was an INTENTIONAL discharge, the results we darn sure UN-INTENTIONAL... but darn sure funny!

 

[EddieNFL]

Accidental discharge - malfunction of the weapon (ex - the Remington 700 rifle)

IMO 99.9999 percent malfunctions are human induced. Be it kitchen table gunsmithing, lack of maintenance or poor engineering, if it's caused by a human it is negligence.

If you did not intend for the gun to fire, the shot can be correctly referred to as an "accident".

The OP intentionally pulled the trigger. He negligently failed to ensure the firearm was unload. No accident here.

 

[ny32182]

As I said, the definition of accident does not speak to cause. You can have an accident caused by negligence, or an accident caused by factors that are not reasonably expected to be controlled by anyone. Consult the definition of "accident", cited earlier in the thread.

 

[CHALK22]

The second time it happened, well I knew not to tap the bolt forward, so, pointing the muzzle down-range I jacked the bolt back to eject the unfired round. The bolt closed, chambering a fresh round. "Bang."

There is a chunk of concrete missing in one of the shooting lanes at a range in town for that same reason. Not me, but a buddy. At least he had pointed towards the ground and downrange. Nobody was hurt, and he traded the SKS off to a local gunsmith for an 870. Still must have made a great richochet.

 

[The-Reaver]

Sounds like a case of slamfire.
I have indeed put a round into the ground due to slamfire.

 

[Shoot66]

Unfortunately, I too belong to the group of those guilty of negligence. I returned home after a long and tiresome day at work. Sat down, dissembled my semi-auto, cleaned and oiled it and I assembled it back. Then my wife returned home too and needed to discuss something shortly. After she left the room, back to my work, I had the last thing to do. To check whether the firearm works as it is supposed to. I pointed the pistol in front of me and …shot an innocent kitchen appliance. By now most of you probably guessed what had happened. Being tired and distracted I forgot I had put a fresh magazine into the pistol just the moment my wife was entering the room and I had forgotten about that. I pulled the trigger without checking the chamber beforehand and… there was no ACCIDENT. The mechanism worked just fine and I got my first (and hopefully last) NEGLIGENT discharge.
Yes, I learnt a valuable lesson. Since that night, whenever I clean my weapons I always leave the ammo in an other room. Usually, doubling the safety measure by locking the ammo (or a loaded mag) in a drawer. If I believe I should have a ready weapon while doing so, I use a weapon of a different caliber.
Nobody but my wife knows. Now I am sharing this story for the sake of those THR friends who don´t know better yet. Complacency, tiredness, distractions… No matter what, always preserve the 4 rules. It is the only safe way.

 

[1911Tuner]

Rare that they are, there is such a thing as an accidental discharge. I've had two...both with bolt-action rifles. One belonged to a friend, and the other one was mine...a Ruger 77 in .223 caliber.

The first one was a varmint rifle that had undergone some tricky trigger work, which broke at just 12 ounces. Being unaccustomed to such things, I bolted the rifle a little too briskly, and it fired. Mea Culpa...but the trigger group had been dinked with pretty extensively.

With the other one...in pursuit of top accuracy...I'd neck-sized the brass, and noticed that on one round, it was difficult to bolt the rifle. Figuring that I'd seated the bullet a little too far into the lands, I pressed on, not wishing to extract the round and leave a bullet stuck...with powder spilling into the action. Just as the bolt went to full battery...BANG.
The striker didn't fall.

The only explanation I could come up with was that the primer had been crushed with sufficient force to detonate it.

 

[Southern Rebel]

I have never understood why educated people have such a problem understanding the meaning of the word accidental???? It merely expresses the point that the "happening" of the event was not on purpose. The discussion of whether there was negligence involved is a separate issue.

The same applies to the word "negligent". An event involving negligence could be accidental or on purpose. If I run over an individual while driving 100 mph in a 30 mph zone, I will likely be convicted of negligence, but my speed would centainly not be classified as "accidental".

The two words are not irretrievably locked together or forever and always separate - kind of like if a woman has a baby, it could be accidental or on purpose. If accidental, it might be thru negligence - or not.

(Now, don't get me started on magazines vs. clips!)

 

[Creature]

I have never understood why educated people have such a problem understanding the meaning of the word accidental????

I would submit that these differences could be an arguable issue in a court of law.

 

[NMGonzo]

Wiggle the revolver next to your ear.

Sometimes our eyes play tricks that our ears will catch.

 

[Yarddog]

Dirty Kid & The Don
It's NOT good for any (Rimfire) 22s To be dry firing, Just a little freindly advice ; )
Y/D

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

A little off topic...

Did you actually pee or poop yourself when it went off? I've heard of this happening, but it's never been confirmed by anyone I know personally. It's always been a second, third, or fourth hand account.

 

[The Don]

Yarddog

I know this now and thats another reason I use the snap caps. Thanks for the advice though, and thanks for not being mister know it all this is right and your wrong.

 

[alienbogey]

There are bad discharges that are pure accidents.
There are bad discharges that are pure negligence.
Most bad discharges are a mix of the two.

'There is no such thing as an accidental discharge' is a line of hooey that makes about as much sense as saying, 'There are no absolutes'.

[Note: I used the term 'bad discharge' to distinguish the subject discussed from a 'good' discharge, which for example would be a shooter picking up his weapon, pointing it at an appropriate, intended target, placing his finger on the trigger, and discharging the weapon. The vast majority of discharges are 'good']

 

[EddieNFL]

It merely expresses the point that the "happening" of the event was not on purpose. The discussion of whether there was negligence involved is a separate issue.

The trigger pull was intentional; failure to clear the firearm was negligence. No accident here.

This isn't about strict definitions (that's a game lawyers play), it's about responsibility.

 

[Drako]

Negligence causes accidents thats why you try your best to avoid it. but even when you buy old or even new, sometime theres is always some form of negligence, from a manufature or a individual , or even from it being stored by a military or a distibutor. Its kinda like how does everybody die. You can always say it is from lack of oxygen to the brain, even if he is shot or burned or smashed or suficates. The end is the lack of oxygen to the brain, same with "accidental discharge" its negligence on someone or somethings part, But a good thorough inspection and cleaning of the first rifle, would of prevented it. And Stoopid is as Stoopid does on the second one. Don't feel bad at least you learned a valuable lesson without costing you life or property of unreplacible value. I at the age of 34 have had three, first one was a Llama 380 from pure horse play and lack of experiance. it cost one dresser mirror and some plaster, I was 12. The second one was a .22 and is still in the closet wall at unknown depth, I was 20 didn't even know it was there. thanks dad! The last one was a 300 win mag and I was on a range with the range master, being on target before I put the first round in the chamber, needless to say I loaded the rifle, chambered the round and put the cross hairs on the X and then placed my fingre on the trigger. The armorer that built my rifle did not adjust the pull of the trigger and it was 11 oz yes I typed 11oz. I thought the lightest wa 3.5 for a rifle I was wrong the range master didn't even notice I was not ready for it, because I hit the X thank god because that bastard would of work me to death. Still!! my rifle my negligence!!, but with safety procedures in place and me using them. it went off with the range master next to me not even noticing. So all said safety saves lives and there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, and nobody is perfect . NOBODY!

 

[belercous]

Hi, me the idiot again. Well, not as much of an idiot since the latest lesson learned.

To address a few posts; The SKS was not a slam-fire. Those happen when the bolt closed, my discharges were due to the bolt not fully closing, then pulling the trigger. The next time the bolt fully closes the firing pin is coming forward.

I stand by my contention that this was not an accident. The gun did what it did because it was doing what it was designed to do. Same as with the vast majority of automobile accidents. Unless it is an unforeseen mechanical failure, there is no accident, there is negligence on the driver's behalf. The laws of physics can be a bitch, and they don't change just because someone ignores them.
I'm not gonna play games with semantics to "spin" the event, as Eddie said "that's a game lawyers play." And I have a law degree (J.D.), so I could put the best face on it, but I won't. I own this stupid act, no way around that. "Negligence" falls under "stupid."
Just because someone who is negligent doesn't intend for an action to occur does not make it an "accident." Barring the suspension of the laws of physics, there is no such thing, especially with guns. A mechanical failure is no excuse to point a loaded gun at anything you do not wish to see shot. Unintended is not the same as accidental.

Seriously, can anyone tell me of a true "accidental" discharge? I don't see how that is possible. Unintended is one thing, but "accidental?" If a gun is loaded and it goes off
how could this not be foreseen? Would it be the first time a mechanical failure occurred?
Do inanimate objects have free-will? If a gun is loaded and it fires there is no accident. That's what it is supposed to do. Unintended discharges, sure. If one cannot imagine a mechanical failure (which is rare, granted) that makes it an accident? Why do we have the rule to never point a gun at anything that we don't wish to see destroyed? Because of negligence (unloaded guns have killed a lot of people) and mechanical failure. "The sear let loose." Well why was a loaded gun pointed at X to begin with? "Well, I didn't intend to do it." Yes, but you did not intend not to do it. Sorry, there is no excuse.

Turner1911; No accident there. The inanimate object did was it was made to do. Put a hair-trigger on a gun and you may just get unintended results. Same with custom reloads. Not feelin' ya on the accident thing. Ignorance, faulty equiptment or negligence does not an accident make. In the end, the user is responsible for whatever happens.

Alcohol had more to do with my editing than it did with shooting an innocent guitar. I certainly did have about 5 ozs. of bourbon in the immediate aftermath of the event to calm my nerves, but I don't play with guns when I've been drinking. I may be stupid, but I'm not crazy.

Cop Bob; I wish that range officer was at my house the other night because that is exactly what I didn't do; count the rounds. My guess on the 1911 discharge would be a build up of static electricity (cop cars have a lot of radio/electrical gear) due to improper installation, a faulty ground wire, or an alternator with 2 burned out diodes. I've seen some weird things happen to aircraft radios due to this but where the alternator still putting out proper voltage.

I have never found any part of the projectile. I have taken the guitar apart and found no sign of the copper jacket, nor even a slight mark on the wall behind it. I dunno, the ammo was frangible but the jacket had to go somewhere. Still looking.

I did not actually have a bowel movement, it was just interjected as a bit of levity.

Drako: my SKS was clean, both times. And properly lubricated. Still, there is something wrong (I suppose) with it. Perhaps a slightly bent reciever? It's only happened twice out of the 700+ rds. I've fired from it. Perhaps that was why it was sold.

 

[InkEd]

I understand the point people are trying to make with the "no such things as accidental but rather only negligent discharge" discussion. However, it sounds very stupid. Look-up the word "accidental." A negligent discharge IS an accidental discharge by the very definition of the word. It is an unplanned
event that occurs often with negative consequences. There can be other causes for an accidental discharge, caused by mechanical failures and whatever but a negligent discharge is still an accidental discharge because it wasn't planned. An automobile accident is still an automobile accident. An accidental discharge is still an accidental discharge. The most common cause FOR the accident is negligence BUT it's still an accident. Buy a dictionary.

Shoot safe. Don't be NEGLIGENT and help avoid an ACCIDENTAL discharge.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[gamestalker]

I hate to admit it but I had an incident exactly the same as yours'. The only difference being that I didn't kill a guitar, but I did have to fix a hole in the ceiling and roof. But because I was complacent and didn't count the rounds as I always have when dry firing my .357 Smith, it happened. I was following the first rule of handling a firearm, keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and managed to suffer only surprise and shame, and not the death of an innocent bystander.

 

[Screendmon]

I'm always double-checking the snap caps and counting all six, when changing them out with the 357s. Then when the 357s are in I keep reminding myself the gun is loaded, the gun is loaded.
Check then check again.
then check one more time.

 

[david58]

Safety extends to more than guns - I work in a place that can be very dangerous, and safety is taken very seriously. But, just as with guns, things happen.

Our basic definition with regard to Safety is that there is no such thing as an accident. There is always a root cause.

Someone wasn't looking and stepped off a curb wrong and broke their ankle.

Someone did a repair and didn't clean up well, and another employee tripped on the refuse or stepped in the open hatch.

An electrician ignores high voltage safety and causes a flashover that removes a large body part.

Now to guns,

Slam fire in an SKS, the cause is usually the tapered firing pin, could the owner have made that somewhat commonly done modification (adding the spring) when he purchased the gun? Not an accident.

Remington 700 - root cause is a trigger mechanism that could be prone to "issues." Rem could have fixed it, current owners could replace it. Not an accident.

Cousin borrows the pistol and leaves a round chambered. Bad on the cousin, worse on the dry-firer. Not an accident.

And so forth. Not accidents, maybe not all negligent (in the case of the sks and the Remington, maybe ignorant discharge - owner simply didn't know, but then who's responsibility is that?).

From this perspective, no such thing as an accident. All can be prevented beforehand, so not accidental - s**t didn't just happen. The key is that it could have been prevented.

Now I type all of this at my peril - I am going to the range this morning with my son with a couple of new handguns, and several that he hasn't shot. Need to keep my head on straight since I just typed all this...

But the moral is, it's a cop-out to call an unintended discharge as "accidental." We could have been more careful - we need to know how our guns function, possible origins of any "oops", and exercise muzzle control like a nazi.

 

[TX expat]

I understand the point people are trying to make with the "no such things as accidental but rather only negligent discharge" discussion. However, it sounds very stupid. Look-up the word "accidental." A negligent discharge IS an accidental discharge by the very definition of the word. It is an unplanned
event that occurs often with negative consequences. There can be other causes for an accidental discharge, caused by mechanical failures and whatever but a negligent discharge is still an accidental discharge because it wasn't planned. An automobile accident is still an automobile accident. An accidental discharge is still an accidental discharge. The most common cause FOR the accident is negligence BUT it's still an accident. Buy a dictionary.

Shoot safe. Don't be NEGLIGENT and help avoid an ACCIDENTAL discharge.

Sorry for the rant.

+1

It gets really old listening to the argument about how it's not an accident. Actually, yes it is an accident... Unless you can convince a whole bunch of scholars to change the definition of 'accident', that's what it is.

So call it an 'accidental discharge' or a 'negligent discharge', it's all correct unless you take the opinion that only your definition is the accurate one.

 

[EddieNFL]

It gets really old listening to the argument about how it's not an accident. Actually, yes it is an accident... Unless you can convince a whole bunch of scholars to change the definition of 'accident', that's what it is.

So call it an 'accidental discharge' or a 'negligent discharge', it's all correct unless you take the opinion that only your definition is the accurate one.

Yet we're drawn like moths to a flame.

It's an accident to the defense attonery and negligence to the PI attonery.