Buying A Gun To Resell?

[snatale42]

Anyone here trade for or buy guns just to sell them for a small profit? I understand no one will get rich doing this, but does anyone here do it?

Selling stuff you no longer want, sure. If you buy some guns to try them out and sell thats ok. But if your specifically buying them to turn for a profit and it can be proven.....Big Trouble! In some states like my home state of MA you can only conduct 4 FTF xfers a year for that reason. In other states where you can just hand off a gun for a stack of money with no paperwork I don't see how you could get "caught" but it's still illegal at the federal level. I wouldn't play with it.

 

[ElToro]

so what happens if i ever need to unwind some of my collection? i have some that are substantially more expensive than what i paid. although adjusted for inflation, not sure.

 

[kingpin008]

so what happens if i ever need to unwind some of my collection? i have some that are substantially more expensive than what i paid. although adjusted for inflation, not sure.

Then you sell them.

What people aren't getting, for some reason, is that selling guns for profit is perfectly legal, UNLESS you're doing it specifically for that purpose. What the OP described is exactly that - buying guns with the express purpose of "flipping" them for profit. Without an FFL, that's illegal. Selling off bits and pieces of your collection that you've grown tired of is not the same.

 

[goon]

I think I've only made money on one or two guns I've ever sold or traded. Usually I break even, but occasionally I lose a little money too.
Either way though, I don't make a profit... because any extra money I get from a gun sale goes back into another gun, more ammo, another magazine, three speedloaders when Midway has them on sale... you get the idea.

 

[Ole Coot]

I'm in the wrong part of the country to answer that. Let's say things are different and if I trade knives I always try to get what I want and make a few dollars or improve my collection. I thought that was what trading was all about, not to lose. Wrong generation I guess. Wouldn't venture to guess about firearms.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Coot, it is
BUT

Lets say you happen upon a collection of 'knives' that you DON'T PERSONALLY WANT
But you know that you can sell them for MUCH more,
So you buy them, JUST TO RESELL for a profit, or period

In guns, BUYING FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF RESELLING
is dealing, and dealing requires a FFL
Now, that said, at every gun show you will find some guy who is trimming down his collection, and the Feds, have, and will, go after those who they see as dealing, and then it's up to you to prove that you weren't in the business of buying and selling guns.

 

[45_auto]

if you buy a gun with the intent to sell it for profit......its illegal

it doesnt matter how often you do it

it doesnt matter how long you hold it for

and it doesnt matter what you do with it in the mean time.

Excellent series of totally false statements there.

You can buy and sell as many guns as you like as often as you like. Profit has nothing to do with it. Buying with the intent to make a profit is fine as long as you don't make your living doing it. ATF says you're a dealer when: "the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection." US Code Title 18 Chapter 44 921 (a) (22)


There is no set number or time period of gun transactions that defines a dealer. It's up to the ATF to decide at what point you are selling firearms with the intent of "obtaining livelihood". At that point you are a dealer and they can prosecute you for it appropriately. You can lose money on every sale and still be prosecuted for illegal dealing.

Livelihood is defined as:

Noun 1. livelihood - the financial means whereby one lives

If you're trying to make your living buying and selling guns, you're a dealer.

 

[Shadow 7D]

actually, it's in the understanding of the first statement that it's true, at least as far as the FEDERAL PROSECUTOR is concerned.

it's in the intent

if you buy a gun with the intent to sell it for profit......its illegal

It doesn't matter if you make money or loose it.
What does matter is the 'business' of buying and selling guns requires a FFL
and the ATF has basically said that outside of

improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.

you are fair game

See the OP posted, he intended to BUY a gun with the INTENT to RESELL
which is neither improving, NOR liquidating a personal collection.

edit
.45, you are right in that it may be hard to prove you were making a 'livelihood' buying and selling guns, my point is that's it JUST as hard to prove you weren't, esp when you have federal agents saying, "he bought this gun, and Immediately listed it for sale to make money, and that's Illegal"

 

[M-Cameron]

Excellent series of totally false statements there.

You can buy and sell as many guns as you like as often as you like. Profit has nothing to do with it. Buying with the intent to make a profit is fine as long as you don't make your living doing it.......

100% wrong

the term "livelyhood" doesnt mean that selling guns need to be your sole source of income, or sole profession......

you could be a multi-millionaire CEO....but if you sell guns on the side....you are still breaking the law

.....ATF says you're a dealer when: "the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection." US Code Title 18 Chapter 44 921 (a) (22)


There is no set number or time period of gun transactions that defines a dealer. It's up to the ATF to decide at what point you are selling firearms with the intent of "obtaining livelihood". At that point you are a dealer and they can prosecute you for it appropriately. You can lose money on every sale and still be prosecuted for illegal dealing.

Livelihood is defined as:

Quote:
Noun 1. livelihood - the financial means whereby one lives

If you're trying to make your living buying and selling guns, you're a dealer.

too bad the OP isnt talking about improving or liquidating a collection......he is talking about buying guns...for the sole purpose....of selling them.

it has nothing to do with how much money they make.....or whether it is his sole source of income....

 

[Vaarok]

The part I always wondered about is what happens if someone buys a gun locally and then gunbrokers it, and uses a FFL to sent it intrastate. Is it the seller dealing, or is the FFL shipping it, or the FFL receiving the transfer fee doing the actual dealing?

 

[gym]

I never bought a gun with the intent to sell it. I have bought guns, then found one I liked better and had to sell one in order to afford the new one. Most times I lose money doing that. So I guess if I lose money it's ok. What amazes me about the law is that they only want to share in the profit never the loss. If I had a dollar for every dollar I lost in this hobby, I would have a lot of guns I don't have.

 

[45_auto]

too bad the OP isnt talking about improving or liquidating a collection......he is talking about buying guns...for the sole purpose....of selling them.

Improving or liquidating a collection are examples of valid reasons for selling a BUNCH of guns in a short time without being considered a dealer.

Buying a gun for the sole purpose of selling it for a profit is perfectly legal AS LONG AS IT IS NOT YOUR LIVELIHOOD.

Unfortunately, you do not get to decide when it becomes your livelihood, the ATF does.

 

[Ryanxia]

I didn't read every reply BUT.

In my state you can legally sell of all or part of your collection (and for some of us that's hundreds). If you "potentially" made a profit you would have to report it

That being said some States this is more easily done than others, if you can make private sales without going through an FFL it becomes much easier (legal in my State) and you should only have to prove that you are selling off all or part of your collection.
Though I wouldn't go into a store and buy $5k worth of guns then turn around and start selling them

 

[45_auto]

The part I always wondered about is what happens if someone buys a gun locally and then gunbrokers it, and uses a FFL to sent it intrastate. Is it the seller dealing, or is the FFL shipping it, or the FFL receiving the transfer fee doing the actual dealing?

The person who ends up with the money for the gun is the seller. The FFL shipping it is the shipping FFL, the FFL receiving it is the receiving FFL.

The only way one of the FFLs would be the seller is if they end up with the money paid for the gun as part of their income (not counting transaction fees). Which would mean they either purchased the gun from you or you gave it to them.

Just follow the money!

 

[NavyLCDR]

you can't buy a gun with the idea of selling it for a profit. That requires an FFL.

There is no Federal law that requires an FFL for a person to buy a gun with the idea of selling it for a profit.

If I see a good gun deal at a garage sale, estate sale, etc.... and I have a good idea I can sell it for more, there is no law that says I have to possess an FFL to buy that gun with the intention of reselling it and making some $$$ in the transaction.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Nor should there be. Why should it be different than buying an old car or antique furniture to fix up and sell?

 

[Guillermo]

There is no Federal law that requires an FFL for a person to buy a gun with the idea of selling it for a profit.

guess you read the law different than I

(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary
gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection

As TexasRifleman explained

It says if your PRIMARY goal is profit it's a prohibited act

But please...explain to us why we are wrong.

 

[newfalguy101]

This is one of "those" questions:

Ask ten people and you willget ten different answers ALL with supporting links......

If'n you wanna know, ask ATF

 

[newfalguy101]

Oh, and to directly answer your first question:

NO, it would not be a strawman purchase

 

[Tomcat47]

<deleted>

It is Thin Ice Either way you ask the question? If I were going to regularly be buying and trading/selling firearms I think I would just go get an FFL. Just Me.

I do buy! And I do Trade some, but rarely sell them!

 

[Guillermo]

If'n you wanna know, ask ATF

Buddy of mine did a similar thing...with NO INTENT to make a profit. Just needed the money.

Had a jack-booted thug show up at his door and question him. Followed with a "cease and desist" letter.

Now you can read the law...which is pretty clear to readers of English...and say that "intent to profit " does not mean "make money". Good luck to you.

I am not saying it is right. I am just telling you the law as I know it and as I see it administered.

I would NOT do it.

Period

 

[bbuddtec]

I'm just going to say I'm with TR and NLT on this one... and "I think..." etc. doesn't hold water. They are well versed and know from whence they speak. Thanks, guys.

I stand to acquire two safe queens the owner wants to sell off... I may not get rid of either, but selling/ trading one would certainly still increase my collections' value, to my benefit.

It's ridiculous to consider a responsible sale that brings profit to be criminal... otherwise car dealers have a lot of answering to do... (sale of a deadly weapon and all) hehehe

 

[Guillermo]

It's ridiculous to consider a responsible sale that brings profit to be criminal

yes it is

and nobody on this thread suggested that such is the case

 

[teumessian_fox]

I do my part to salvage the economy. I buy high and sell low.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Quote:
There is no Federal law that requires an FFL for a person to buy a gun with the idea of selling it for a profit.

guess you read the law different than I

Quote:
(22) The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and
profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of
firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary
gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection

As TexasRifleman explained

Quote:
It says if your PRIMARY goal is profit it's a prohibited act

But please...explain to us why we are wrong.

I'll be happy to explain.
18 USC 923(a) says:

§ 923. Licensing

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.

A person needs a license to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms.

18 USC 921 (a)(21) tells us what engaged in a business is and even what it is not:

§ 921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

It is completely legal for me, without an FFL, to make occasional sales or purchases of firearms as a hobby. Where does it say I can't make money from my hobby? Additionally, 18 USC 921(a)(22) further defines principal objective of livelihood and profit as:

§ 921. Definitions
(a) As used in this chapter—
(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection

I am a LCDR in the US Navy and bring home $7,200 per month in salary. Do you REALLY think or that there is even reasonable suspicion that if I buy a gun 3 or 4 times per year and sell those guns to make maybe $100 on each one that I am doing so with the intent of obtaining livelihood from such sales?

That's why you happen to be wrong on this one. It's perfectly legal for me to make OCCASIONAL purchases, sales and exchanges of firearms, with the intent of making a profit, AS A HOBBY. Once I start doing so repetitively with the primary purpose of livelihood, without a license, THEN I am breaking the law.