Buying A Gun To Resell?
- Thread starter IcemanUnlimited
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NavyLCDR
member
Go to a gun show and see how many private sellers you can find. Do you really think all those private sellers are selling their guns at a loss or at cost and that they are committing a Federal felony if they make a little bit of profit from their sales?
it really has nothing to do with whether you make a profit or not......
if you buy a gun with the intention to resell it.....and you do resell it....it is illegal.
however....there is nothing wrong with buying a gun because you like it as a gun......and then selling it if you so choose.
and if those people at gun shows are buying with the intent to resell, yes, it is a crime.....
.....however, ide imagine it is enfoirced much like smoking weed at weed conventions.....technically illegal....however the police arent going to waste their time trying arresting everyone on something they may or may not have been doing.
wow6599
Member
What if you (no FFL) buy a gun with the intention to resell it, but transfer the gun through a FFL to the buyer?
Mike Faires
Member
Why are you beating this dead horse? The original poster posed the question of buying guns to turn a profit. By doing so on a public forum and stating his intent is to make a profit by purchasing and then reselling firearms he has established the legal intent to engage in business of selling firearms without an FFL. He has established the prosecutors case for him as much as interring a guilty plea if and when he does same and is caught. :banghead:
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
NavyLT said:
I agree completely. As a hobby is specifially called out as a legitimate reason to sell guns. The intent therefore is not profit, it's a hobby.
If you get to a point where the profit becomes significant I'm sure you could run afoul of the ATF on this but just a few here and there because it's fun for you simply doesn't hit the threshold. The OP here, again, says his sole motivation is to buy low, sell high and augment his income. That's a completely different story.
Guillermo said:
Did what exactly? Bought and sold a gun simply because he needed the money? Or, sold a gun he already owned because he was tight on cash? Or what?
I hear these stories all the time about ATF coming down on one guy for selling one gun and to be honest I have to question the circumstances around these. The ones I've had personal knowledge of usually involved something a bit more complicated than just selling a gun.
So he wasn't charged with a crime, he received a letter telling him he shouldn't do "something".
What was that something? What did the letter actually say? I would bet there is more to the story than just selling one gun. How did ATF even become aware he was selling a gun or guns?
If you are walking around a gun show buying and selling guns and ATF sees you I have no doubt they will send you a letter warning you of the requirement to have an FFL to "engage in business". That doesn't mean they are accusing you of engaging in business necessarily but if that's your hobby you really need to expect to see an ATF agent at your door eventually, and need to be prepared to explain why you are not violating the law.
deadin
Member
Define "occasional"........
I think this is where things get real cloudy as there is no definite number or time frame given.
I think this is where things get real cloudy as there is no definite number or time frame given.
NavyLCDR
member
deadin said:
That's easy. It's right there in the statute. The definition of occasional is obviously anything less than repetitive!
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
It's dangerous to give "occasional" a specific definition.
Example:
Collector A has 400 guns, sells 40 in a year. Is that occasional? Probably. It's only 10% of his collection.
Collector B has 5 guns, sells 200 in a year. Is that occasional? Probably not, he's probably engaged in the business although one could argue some circumstances where this might come up.
Collector C has 500 guns and sells every single one of them in a month because he wants a boat. Is that occasional? Yep.
If you arbitrarily define "occasional" to 20 guns a year you punish Collector A and C for no reason.
If you define "occasional" to 2 sales a year, 4 sales a year etc you punish collectors because the day they run across that Holy Grail for their collection will be the day after they have hit their yearly "quota".
Bad law is what that would be.
Example:
Collector A has 400 guns, sells 40 in a year. Is that occasional? Probably. It's only 10% of his collection.
Collector B has 5 guns, sells 200 in a year. Is that occasional? Probably not, he's probably engaged in the business although one could argue some circumstances where this might come up.
Collector C has 500 guns and sells every single one of them in a month because he wants a boat. Is that occasional? Yep.
If you arbitrarily define "occasional" to 20 guns a year you punish Collector A and C for no reason.
If you define "occasional" to 2 sales a year, 4 sales a year etc you punish collectors because the day they run across that Holy Grail for their collection will be the day after they have hit their yearly "quota".
Bad law is what that would be.
jimmyraythomason
Member
If the ATF thinks they have a case against an "unlicensed dealer" they will prosecute. If not..... can you prove you aren't "in the business"?
deadin
Member
Halley's Comet is repetitive, but I don't think selling a gun every 75 or 76 years is going to get the ATF knocking on your door.
Sure glad I mailed my FFL to Clarksburg several years ago and got out of the "paper chase" BATFE, still had to dig up one record years old I didn't send. Sure glad I had it "filed" away.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Are you near AL.
NavyLCDR
member
immyraythomason said:
It would not be up to the defendant to prove they were not engaged in business. It would be up to the prosecution to prove to a jury's satisfaction that the defendant was engaged in a business. The elements that would have to be proven to be engaged in a business are:
1. Dealing in firearms in the regular course of trade or business
2. With the principal objective of BOTH livelihood and profit (not just profit, but livelihood as well).
The statute very clearly states that a person who occassionally buys and sells guns, even with the intent of making a profit, is not engaged in the business if the intent to provide livelihood is not there. If I go to the gun show every month and sell one or two guns that I buy from gunbroker or yard sales and make $100 or $200 per month doing so, there can hardly be ANY proof that I am doing so with the intent of providing livelihood, especially since I have a regular job during the week completely unrelated to guns. I am just doing so to have money to buy ammo/reloading supplies as part of my entire shooting hobby.
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NavyLCDR
member
M-Cameron said:
Did you read the Federal law that you posted? The Federal law that you, yourself posted does NOT limit lawful buying and selling without a license to the purposes of improving or liquidating a collection. The Federal law only gives EXAMPLES of lawful buying and selling: "SUCH AS improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection." "Such as" has a completely different meaning than "limited to."
I can buy a couple guns per month, with the intent of selling them at the gun show and making $100 or $200 profit in order to buy ammo to support my shooting HOBBY. Occassional trades and sales are allowed as part of a hobby, whether or not the intent to make a profit is there. Engaged in the business must have the intent of LIVELIHOOD which you, yourself posted is defined as: "the financial means whereby one lives." The financial means whereby I live by is my $7,200 per month Navy LCDR salary. It is perfectly legal for the extra money I spend on ammo to support my hobby to come from selling 1 or 2 guns a month, if I so choose.
Good&Fruity
Member
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This. In this case, the ATF will GIVE you guns they confiscated from the rest of us.
Guillermo
member
in addition to the law being very clear...the jack-booted thugs believe it to be so. And they are the ones who will have their foot on your back and their muzzle on the nape of your neck.
NavyLCDR
member
Guillermo said:
Nice edit of the actual statute to fit you erroneous description. Why don't you post the actual unedited statute:
Can you explain why you chose to edit out the three words highlighted above? Maybe because it changes the meaning of enganged in the business of dealing in firearms? The "AND" after "obtaining livelihood" makes it a required intention just as much as "pecuniary gain" is. Both intentions must be present to be "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms".
Guillermo
member
Dude...you are making this harder than it is.
It says if your intent is to make money...you have to have an FFL.
By your way of thinking, if you are independently wealthy or if you are really bad at it and never make a profit you don't need an FFL.
Even if you were right, which you aren't, it doesn't matter...the ATF thinks that such is the law.
If they catch you buying and selling guns in order to make money, you are going to have a hefty legal bill and probably some "quality time" playing house in a corner cell with a real criminal.
The OP should NOT do what he asked about because he has proclaimed publicly that it is to make money. He could get into serious trouble.
I am not saying that it is right. The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to regulate guns. But they have guys with automatic weapons, armored vehicles and armed planes as well as a history of violence roaming about looking for guys that buy and sell guns without a license.
thank you for your service.
It says if your intent is to make money...you have to have an FFL.
By your way of thinking, if you are independently wealthy or if you are really bad at it and never make a profit you don't need an FFL.
Even if you were right, which you aren't, it doesn't matter...the ATF thinks that such is the law.
If they catch you buying and selling guns in order to make money, you are going to have a hefty legal bill and probably some "quality time" playing house in a corner cell with a real criminal.
The OP should NOT do what he asked about because he has proclaimed publicly that it is to make money. He could get into serious trouble.
I am not saying that it is right. The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority to regulate guns. But they have guys with automatic weapons, armored vehicles and armed planes as well as a history of violence roaming about looking for guys that buy and sell guns without a license.
thank you for your service.
Guillermo
member
FYI,
To answer your question..."obtaining livelihood" IS making money.
To answer your question..."obtaining livelihood" IS making money.
FIVETWOSEVEN
Member
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- 5,146
From what I've read, buying a gun with the intent on selling later is legal because it would be enhancing a collection and not earning a livelihood.
dogtown tom
Member
FYI to everyone who is concened about profit, pecuinary gain, livlihood, etc...............ATF doesn't look at how much $$$$ an FFL earns....only his transactions. If you feel comfortable buying dozens of guns and reselling all but one to "enhance your collection" knock yourself out. I didn't and applied for my FFL.
ATF has arrested nonlicensees for buying and selling as few as ONE firearm. Nonlicensee bought a gun from a gun show patron and immediately attached a price tag and laid it out on his table for sale. I'm sure he argued that it was "occassional" and that he didn't earn his entire livlihood from buying or selling that ONE gun.........but the fact remains that he was indicted for dealing in firearms without a license. While he might eventually beat the rap.....you don't beat the ride. I would rather pay $200 for my FFL than $200+ an hour to a criminal defense lawyer.
Only you can decide if buying a dozen milsurp guns and selling all but one is worth the risk of being an unlicensed dealer. But, but, but how will ATF know?
When they do a compliance inspection on the dealer you acquired those guns from:
"You bought twenty SKS rifles from AIM?"
"And you only have these two?"
"Oh........so THESE two were the "collectible" ones?"
"So what happened to the other eighteen?"
Good luck on that.
ATF has arrested nonlicensees for buying and selling as few as ONE firearm. Nonlicensee bought a gun from a gun show patron and immediately attached a price tag and laid it out on his table for sale. I'm sure he argued that it was "occassional" and that he didn't earn his entire livlihood from buying or selling that ONE gun.........but the fact remains that he was indicted for dealing in firearms without a license. While he might eventually beat the rap.....you don't beat the ride. I would rather pay $200 for my FFL than $200+ an hour to a criminal defense lawyer.
Only you can decide if buying a dozen milsurp guns and selling all but one is worth the risk of being an unlicensed dealer. But, but, but how will ATF know?
When they do a compliance inspection on the dealer you acquired those guns from:"You bought twenty SKS rifles from AIM?"
"And you only have these two?"
"Oh........so THESE two were the "collectible" ones?"
"So what happened to the other eighteen?"
Good luck on that.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
dogtown tom said:
Having a table at a gun show makes it a bit likely there was more than one gun involved wouldn't you say?
Do you have details? Case name, media reports etc?
And here's the thing. You say you applied for an FFL to do occasional sales. That itself is not supposed to happen based on the Clinton ruling. They have eased some but they still are not supposed to issue 01 FFLs for collector purposes.
I tried it, thinking it would make everything easier. I have a rejection letter from ATF because during the interview I told the agent flat out I had no intention of trying to make a living selling guns, I just wanted a license to make it easier to have guns come in and out of my own personal pile of guns.
They told me that was not sufficient reason to have an 01 FFL.
So now I have a letter from ATF telling me I am OK selling 9 out of 10 rifles in a one time deal to enhance my collection with an 03 C&R FFL, I have a rejection letter from ATF denying my application for an 01 FFL, yet I'm being told that ATF will come knock down my door for doing exactly what they told me to do?
Have to excuse my questioning of why some of you are giving the advice you are giving.
Don't get me wrong, healthy paranoia when dealing with ATF is probably a good thing and if someone isn't completely comfortable with an act they should at least ask ATFs opinion or avoid it completely.
But, all these stories about "a guy I heard about sold one gun and he's in Attica"... where is this happening and where are the court cases? Maybe it does happen, but I'm willing to bet there is more to the story, like the one above. A table at a gun show and only sold "one gun" doesn't pass the smell test does it?
NavyLCDR
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