Buying a safe in the near future? You'll probably want to see this.

[Gunnerpalace]

It is the best to conceal the safe, if you want bad ideas get a gun safe catalog and look at all the beautiful safes......sitting in the middle of somebody's living room Your safe is no longer "safe" when everybody can see it from the road.

 

[JWarren]

SNN Vet wrote:

Quote:
Most homes these days have monitored ALARM SYSTEMS.

Man, what planet do you live on?

SSN Vet,

I am not sure I understand your comment. The above quote was from me, so I figured I'd ask for clarification.


Are you saying that MOST homes DON'T have monitored alarm systems? I suppose I live in a world where people actually DO. Amazingly, that little world is small-town, rural Mississippi. Who'da thunk it that we were on the cutting edge of technology?

I can't imagine ANYONE who has things worth stealing or is worried about security NOT having an alarm system. Hell, every 3 minutes, ADT is on TV showing how cheap you can get into one. Right now, they are even installing a second keypad free (a $99 value -- call now.)

Even if I DIDN't worry about theft that much, I would still like it for the Fire alarm service-- since I have my pups in the house while I am at work.


Serously, I think it cost about $300 a year MAX for a monitiored alarm system. That is money well spent.



-- John

 

[RNB65]

Are you saying that MOST homes DON'T have monitored alarm systems?

None of my friends have alarm systems. Right off hand, I can't think of anyone I know that has an alarm system. A few have dogs Does that count?

 

[JWarren]

None of my friends have alarm systems. Right off hand, I can't think of anyone I know that has an alarm system. A few have dogs Does that count?

Wow... I am drawing a blank on thinking of anyone I know that DOESN'T have one.


-- John

 

[Kentak]

Hmmm.

How about that same safe, located so it can't be tipped over. And with the side opposite the hinges against a solid wall and bolted from the inside. Can't be tipped over, and no leverage for the pry bars.

Now how long would it take?

 

[Owen Sparks]

Here is a thought. One thing that a good quality safe does provide is heat protection from fire. I wonder what the odds of having a house fire are compared to the odds of a break in by professional thieves who are equipped to breech a safe. I guess the ultimate would be a good fire proof safe that was concealed behind a false wall or bookcase. The cost of constructing effective concealment would be only a fraction of the cost of the safe, and a thief would not even know it was there. I saw a walk in safe built into a living room wall once when I was a kid that was excellent. It was beside a big picture window with floor length drapes. The safe door was also dressed with matching drapes. When the family was out they simply drew both sets of drapes closed and you could not tell. Two matching windows in the living room draws no suspicion. This "safe was actually a small room that was converted when the owners salvaged a steel door and installed it in place of the original wooden door. While not nearly as heavy as some, it would still require considerable effort to open. I doubt that it was fire proof though. The only way I found out was when I was visiting and a big storm blew up and the Mom hustled all of us kids in there as it also doubled as a storm shelter.

 

[Brad Johnson]

How about that same safe, located so it can't be tipped over. And with the side opposite the hinges against a solid wall and bolted from the inside. Can't be tipped over, and no leverage for the pry bars.

The same amount of time as the one in the video. You presume all pry bars are straight.

One thing that a good quality safe does provide is heat protection from fire. I wonder what the odds of having a house fire are compared to the odds of a break in by professional thieves who are equipped to breech a safe.

I'm far more concerned about the fire rating of my safe. Not only does it have my guns in it, I also use it for sensitive records storage that includes some data backups. Two people know the location of my safe, me and my father. Even my mother, who knows I have a safe, is unaware of where it is. The probability is that fire is more of a danger than theft, so my choice of safe was heavily biased based on the UL fire resistance certification.

Brad

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Just like "Nothing is fool-proof for a sufficiently talented fool" so "Nothing is burglar-proof for a sufficiently talented thief". It comes down to our brains & wallets verses the BG's brains & resolve. Throughout history the accumulation of assets have drawn the interest of scoff-laws who were intent on stealing them. That's not gong to change.

I'm of the opinion that hiding is more effective than locking-up. But to spend $10K to "secure" a $20K Gun Collection is NOT money well spent.

 

[ilbob]

The safe situation is very similar. You need product information that only professionals have. You'll very possibly need services that only the professionals provide. Why not deal directly with the professional, especially when the prices are the same.

Is there a difference in the price you charge for professional services (such as safe moving, repair, or combination changing) for someone who bought the safe from you versus someone who did not?

One reason to deal with Walmart or your favorite sporting goods store is that many people are already familiar with them. You wonder around Walmart and see a safe (or a glorifed metal locker - depending on your POV). In many cases it is close to an impulse purchase.

I have a cannon safe. don't know what the professionals think of it. maybe the professional safe guy could comment on it.

what about a knockdown safe? i see the zanoti guy at the gun show. what does the pro think of that safe? seems like a good choice for apartment dwellers.

i don't mean to put the pro on the spot, but just curious what he thinks.

 

[a1abdj]

Seriously, What kind of SERVICE could POSSIBLY need done on a safe that would be the decision breaker for you. You'd probably pay 300.00 extra for some "special grease".

I've heard an older locksmith say it best: You can pay us now, or you can pay us more later.

I'm assuming you don't maintain any of your other mechanical devices either. Change the oil in your car? Clean and lube your guns?

I drill open 4 or 5 safes a week where the failure could have been prevented through regular maintenance. Want to do the maintenance yourself? I open 2 or 3 each month after the owner messes with it and it locks up.

Locks are precision mechanical devices which do require "special grease", although it only costs about $15 a tube. Locks need to be balanced to correct wheel drift, and the wheel packs torqued to factory specs. Of course, most of my bill isn't for the grease and the work. It's for knowing where to put the grease and how to do the work.

When I charge $300 to $600 to drill open a locked gun safe (usually less than an hour worth of work), only $50 of that covers the hole. The rest of the money is charged for knowing where to put the hole, and what to do with it once it's there.

 

[ilbob]

Locks are precision mechanical devices which do require "special grease", although it only costs about $15 a tube. Locks need to be balanced to correct wheel drift, and the wheel packs torqued to factory specs. Of course, most of my bill isn't for the grease and the work. It's for knowing where to put the grease and how to do the work.

what maint does a typical safe need and how often?

 

[TangSafetyM77]

Bolt to Floor?

Based largely on knowledge gained from this site and the postings of a1abdj and CB900f, I bought a real safe. My safe was used. Sea World was updating all their safes, and I got one of their old ones. The walls are over 2" thick tool resistant steel with an inch layer of concrete inside for fire protection. The safe is large. With the guns removed, two 200 pound guys can stand inside my safe and close the door. The safe weighs 4500 lbs, the door is 1500 lbs of that weight. When I asked them to bolt it to the floor upon delivery, they laughed and showed me the weight of the safe on the ticket, "It ain't goin' anywhere."

With a monster safe that weighs as much as a suburban, should I be concerned about securing to the floor? In addition to the multiple side locking bolts, the door also has top and bottom locking bolts.

BTW, I paid just over $3K for this safe. That included a new combo dial of my choosing, a new paint job, tax and delivery. Now, it it battleship gray and has the old fashioned non digital locking mechanism, but everyone who has ever seen it has asked, "Can I keep my guns in there, man?"

 

[JWarren]

With a monster safe that weighs as much as a suburban, should I be concerned about securing to the floor?

Hehe... I think I'd be more worried about my foundation cracking or floor buckling than bolting THAT down.

Nice safe, btw.


-- John

 

[ShunZu]

Trust the Professional Safe Guy

I have a pretty good idea who A1ABDJ is... I think he sold me my Champion a couple years ago (and just moved it for me 6 weeks ago). If he's the same professional, I highly recommend you trust him, as well as the other experts in this arena.

The cheap safes are just placebos... like having a cheap burglar alarm on one section or door of your house. IMHO it's worse than having nothing -- because the owner convinces themselves that 'anything is better than nothing'... and falls in to complacency. Recipe for being a future victim.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

what maint does a typical safe need and how often?

I'd like to know this as well.

 

[rino451]

In my experience, these real fire/burgler rated safes that cost just a little more than a Liberty or Ft. Knox safe just don't exist in any real quantity. I did some looking and never was able to find anything readily available that'd hold 14 rifles, some pistols, and paper documents for anything near $3,000.

I even posted here asking around and got the impresion that they did indeed exist, but even the used market is pretty thin, IME.

 

[RubenZ]

I'm assuming you don't maintain any of your other mechanical devices either. Change the oil in your car? Clean and lube your guns?

I drill open 4 or 5 safes a week where the failure could have been prevented through regular maintenance. Want to do the maintenance yourself? I open 2 or 3 each month after the owner messes with it and it locks up.

Yes, I do my own maintenance which is why I could care less who I buy my devices or guns from.


Like most people say. Buy a gun from a dealer instead of Academy? WHY? Its not like either place does the actual warranty work anyway.


Obviously the "Professionals" on this board are going to make us feel like we must buy from a professional to get anything good. That to me is BS. I mean yes you get what you pay for. But don't come and say that a 1,000.00 safe is crap because it wasn't bought at a "Professional" place.

 

[strat81]

RubenZ, I think you're missing a1abdj's point. I don't think he's said that a safe/container bought from him is intrinsically better than one bought elsewhere. I've looked at his webpage and prices, and they are comparable to what I've seen elsewhere. Part of what a dealer offers is expertise: I'm sure a1abdj will sell you whatever you want, but he'll make you aware of the pros and cons of each model.

Generally speaking, dealers of ANYTHING (guns, cars, safes, etc) are more happy and more willing to service products they originally sold. I'm not saying that's the best attitude and some dealers are worse than others.

I don't know the first thing about maintaining a safe. But given the complexity of the device and the potential for a mistake to become a several-hundred dollar oops, it makes sense to deal with a professional.

 

[Charles S]

Wow... I am drawing a blank on thinking of anyone I know that DOESN'T have one.

I am drawing a blank on anyone I know (other than a cardiologist) that I know that does have a home monitored security system.

Great thread.

 

[ilbob]

I am drawing a blank on anyone I know (other than a cardiologist) that I know that does have a home monitored security system.

They seem more common in some areas than others. I see a few alarm company signs on residences around here now and then but not very many.

 

[RPCVYemen]

The cheap safes are just placebos... like having a cheap burglar alarm on one section or door of your house. IMHO it's worse than having nothing -- because the owner convinces themselves that 'anything is better than nothing'... and falls in to complacency. Recipe for being a future victim.

My sense is that the people on this thread who have bought cheap safes have a pretty good idea of what they are buying. Have you read some posts on this thread from people who have "fallen in to complacency"?

Sounds to me like people understand pretty clearly what they are buying and why they are buying it.

Mike

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Boy did I get to this one late! And, by the way, I'm the other safe professional that's been around here awhile.

Bolts in the corners! Not worth a bucket of used cat litter.

A major difference between a safe and an RSC is the frame. RSC's typically use several layers of bent sheet metal, ie the body guage metal, as the frame the bolts lock up behind. What you saw in the video is bolts being pried through a sheet metal frame.

A real safe uses a plate steel frame. Therefore, a real safe can use fewer bolts, does not need corner bolts, and offers superior door strength, given that the door is of equal quality. However, a maker who'd offer a plate frame & a sheet metal wrap door just doesn't, at this time to my knowledge, exist.

The incidence of bolting RSC's to the structure in my area might be 1:20, maybe. In a closet to prevent entry? LOL!! It helps, but there are easy ways around it. Charm school grads are usually aware of them. Why don't we professionals tell all on an open site like this? Because we don't feel the need to start any amateurs on their safe-cracking career, thankyouveddymuch.

You get what you pay for. However, I've seen some fairly ridiculous figures bandied about in this thread.

900F

 

[Smokey Joe]

Alarm system...

None of my buds has one that I know of...exept the very best kind, that goes "Ding-dong, WOOF, WOOF, WOOF!!" or "BAWOOOOWOOOWOOO!" (Labs and shorthairs pause between barks. Hounds don't. Not that it matters much to a would-be burglar.)

I may be dreaming, but seems to me that even the most hopped-up crack-head would pass by a house that does that. And certainly a professional would, AFAIK.

ETA: I live in what is still a small town, although growing. If a strange van pulled into my driveway when I wasn't home, the neighbors WOULD notice, and would check. So would I with their houses. I grew up in a city where everybody "minded their own business," and moving here was a revelation. I LIKE nosy neighbors!!

 

[reddogIII]

My 2 cents worth

I've been reading the safe discussions on this forum for several years now. I've been in the locksmith/safe business for over 18 years. The video being discussed is very entertaining (also very valid). Did you pay close attention to the timer? Two minutes. There have been some very good points made in this discussion - the bottom line is: "You get what you pay for!" Safe locks are very delicate mechanisms. Last week I drilled open a safe purchased from the local gun shop (customer was having trouble with the lock not opening reliably). Called the gun shop for help - their "expert" solution:
Massive quantities of gun lube! I had to drill the safe because it wouldn't open at all after the application of the lube. I am now working on the local auto parts store's safe - same reliability problem. After the store manager applied about a pound of graphite the safe would not open at all. Some things do require an expert, and there is no "how-to" book at the local Wal-Mart! As far as bolting down safes: I deliver about a hundred safes a year, and not one in ten is bolted down, per the owner's decision. The title to the video says it best: "The Race to the Bottom: Cheaper is Not Better" Even a bolted-down safe, unless done correctly, is not by any means secure. As a professional I, too, do not post burglary instructions on the internet. I firmly believe everyone should buy the best, highest quality safe they can afford. By all means, in this lawyer-happy world, buy SOMETHING!!!! Talk to a professional, take their advice and do not join the race to the bottom. I have read the professionals on this site - they offer very good advice - that should be heeded. Anyone in the North Country looking for security can PM me. Just my take on things - rant over!

ReddogIII

 

[JWarren]

I'll agree that people that get a mid-range "safe" know what they are getting.

Considering the value of my firearms collection at this time, there is no way on God's green earth I could justify spending 5-7 times the value of my firearms on the safe.

99% of home invasions are "smash-and-grabs" by amateurs. In that case, a mid-grade works perfectly. Frankly, the "professional" thief that has sinister safe-cracking skills isn't going after my house. There are FAR more attractive and lucrative targets for him.

At some point EVERYONE has to weigh the opportunity costs of the dollars they spend. I won't fault someone for making a realistic assessment of their situation.

But I will say this. I am amazed that so many people would spend so much on high-end safes and NOT have an Alarm system. One could argue that a monitored alarm system is MORE effective than a safe and has the ability to effectively guard FAR more dollars worth of assets from theft or fire. And it would do so for a substantially less amount of capital invested.

To me, having a safe-- of any grade-- puts you about 33% towards actually protecting your assets. That's not even batting .500. Alarms and Insurance gets you the rest of the way.


That kinda brings up another area where I may have a differing opinion.

None of my buds has one that I know of...exept the very best kind, that goes "Ding-dong, WOOF, WOOF, WOOF!!" or "BAWOOOOWOOOWOOO!"

I love dogs. But I don't think I'd say they are a superior alarm system to ADT. You see, a dog is GREAT at waking you or alerting you when you ARE home. What about when you are at work? Sure... he barks like crazy. And you are likely miles away.

Anyone who takes the effort to case you home knows what defenses you have in place. I mean think about it... we expect him to come in with tools to crack our safes.... do you not think he'd also bring a small caliber handgun or carbine and shoot your dog?

That's the problem with dogs as Alarm systems. They have an "Off Switch" if we are talking about a thief that is anywhere near prepared-- and that seems to be what we are expecting.

Even if you have neighbors, they would likely not hear a close shot from a .22 rimfire carbine. Most people are too wrapped up in their own lives. And a point blank .22 shot is very quiet. Go out and shoot one into the ground at your feet, and you will see what I mean.


As I see it, a Monitored Alarm System takes the "Off Switch" out of the thief's hands. It insures that there will be a response-- even when you are not home.


As I mentioned earlier, while I was renovating my home, I stayed in my camp. It was broken into and I was robbed. It was evident that my home WAS cased. They had clear objectives and knew exactly where they were going. I have arguably two of the BEST "Watch Dogs"-- Jack Russell Terriers. I have NO doubt that they barked like mad. But you see, the problem was that I was robbed a few hours AFTER I left for work. A good percentage of thefts occur during the day while you are at work.



Any grade safe is only one piece of a home security plan. A dog is only one piece of a home security plan.



-- John