Buying a safe in the near future? You'll probably want to see this.

[a1abdj]

It is the best to conceal the safe, if you want bad ideas get a gun safe catalog and look at all the beautiful safes......sitting in the middle of somebody's living room Your safe is no longer "safe" when everybody can see it from the road.

Once upon a time, this is how it was done. Safes were overbuilt, and were very resistant to the tools of the day. Safe owners were spending a lot of money on their safes, and wanted to show them off. Some of them may have even wanted to dare potential criminals to try to take their valuables. By having the safe within view of the window, everybody going up and down the street could see it. It's hard for a bad guy to operate when he has an audience.

Is there a difference in the price you charge for professional services (such as safe moving, repair, or combination changing) for someone who bought the safe from you versus someone who did not?

Sometimes. The biggest difference is my customer service. If somebody who purchased a safe elsewhere calls and seeks information, I refer them back to the retailer. If they would like to pay for a service call and labor, I would gladly stop by and show them what they need to know. When an existing customer needs information, it's only a phone call away. You'd be surprised how many people operate their safe so seldom that they forget the dialing sequence.

When my existing customers need something done, they are scheduled immediately. When customers who have purchased safes elsewhere call, they are scheduled whenever we can make time. The only exception is emergency service such as a lock out.

I have a cannon safe. don't know what the professionals think of it. maybe the professional safe guy could comment on it.

what about a knockdown safe? i see the zanoti guy at the gun show. what does the pro think of that safe? seems like a good choice for apartment dwellers.

Most gun safe manufacturers build OK products for what they are. I don't so much have a problem with their products as I do their marketing. Many of these manufacturers are purposely misleading customers on the ability of their products to perform.

The modular safes are nice if you have a need for a modular unit. They do cost more, so if you can get by with a regular safe, you're better off going that route. Modular safes have been around for a long time, and are commonly seen during new bank construction. Many vaults are modular units that are trucked in and assembled on site.

what maint does a typical safe need and how often?

This can depend on a number of variables. In most residential settings, every few years. If you were using it daily, or multiple times daily, then every year.

Although we will usually clean and lube the lock during the service, we're also inspecting the safes for small signs pointing to future problems. Uneven wear, loose bolts, or anything else that's not right. Although properly maintained safes can still fail, you'd be surprised how many lock outs that we do which were caused by something simple that would have been noticed during a routine service.

When using your safe, you should also pay attention to any clues it's giving you. Is it taking more attempts to dial it open? Making a noise that it doesn't usually make? Anything else seem unordinary? Most of these problems are easier and less expensive to fix when the safe is open. Call a locksmith out to look at it before you lock it.

I have a pretty good idea who A1ABDJ is... I think he sold me my Champion a couple years ago (and just moved it for me 6 weeks ago).

If you're thinking of Stan, that's not me. We do help Stan with some of his more difficult deliveries or when he's backed up. Stan runs the gun show circuit, and only deals with gun safes.

In my experience, these real fire/burgler rated safes that cost just a little more than a Liberty or Ft. Knox safe just don't exist in any real quantity.

It's not that they don't exist. They are usually snatched up quickly by businesses that are required to use that type of safe. We see them often in our area, and they are very plentiful in large cities. We occasionally retrofit burglary rated safes into gun safes. I'm currently working on an antique plate steel safe that will be a gun safe when I'm finished.

My sense is that the people on this thread who have bought cheap safes have a pretty good idea of what they are buying.

You'd be surprised. I've delivered gun safes sold at Bass Pro to jewelry stores. To many people a square box with a lock is a square box with a lock.

At some point EVERYONE has to weigh the opportunity costs of the dollars they spend. I won't fault someone for making a realistic assessment of their situation.

This is what I help people do. Something that you're not going to get from anybody other than a professional that deals with safes on a daily basis. Part of making your assessment is having a full understanding of the ability of your safe. If you don't really know what the safe will do, you're not knowingly making a sound decision.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well Frank, you do make some pretty good points. I don't agree with all of them to the extent that you are emphasizing them, but more better knowledge usually does beat less and poorer knowledge.

With that said, the video was still a farce. It was based on a fairly cheap trick with the implied claim that something like that would not happen if you went through a safe professional and that just isn't the case.

I will say this, I am amazed by those who think the word "safe" means it is a product that is amazingly difficult to penetrate. Like I said above, most gun safes are nothing more than glorified lock boxes that protect against fire, friends, and family.

 

[ShunZu]

Yep Frank, I was thinking of Stan. He's quite knowledgeable, as you are... and I can't imagine someone here considering the investment not benefitting from your experience.

This -IS- a great thread. I lost 31 guns (mostly my Grandpa's antiques) in 1978 in a burglary that they tore out my false wall in my home and ripped them all off. NOT ONE has shown up at a gun show, although they're still supposed <cough> "to be in the Federal databse" of stolen guns.

I had an FFL at the time and had most of my serial numbers, although some of the pieces were so old they didn't HAVE any -- so good luck in identifying them if they'd turn up now. Old Winchster 69's, 61's, a 3 barrel 101 Pigeon skeet set, 4 barrel 3200, an original .29 S&W. Octagon barrels, over unders, 3 Pythons. Still want to cry to this day thinking about it.

I'm not a safe pro... but my advice is this: Spend as much as you can possibly afford, talk with a REAL safe professional (no, your local kid at Bass Pro don't know squat but would love to sell that PoS to you), and consider this: If your guns end up in the wrong hands, as if losing your pieces in a theft isn't bad enough, they could take the lives of people in the course of crimes being committed with them.

Multiple relockers, a good old fashioned S&G lock (Stan tells me the digital pads are convenient but tempermental and he spends all his spare time with clients trying to break in to their own safes), serious weight, bolt to floor, conceal as much as reasonably possible, and don't tell everyone in the world you have one. Did I forget to mention don't tell anyone what you HAVE in the safe. It could be 1 piece or 100 -- friends drink, talk too much and have friends that may not be YOUR friends. When you count up the dollars you have in your investments, the $$ you spend on the safe is probably going to be much less. Good luck.

 

[JWarren]

a1abdj wrote:

Quote:
At some point EVERYONE has to weigh the opportunity costs of the dollars they spend. I won't fault someone for making a realistic assessment of their situation.

This is what I help people do. Something that you're not going to get from anybody other than a professional that deals with safes on a daily basis. Part of making your assessment is having a full understanding of the ability of your safe. If you don't really know what the safe will do, you're not knowingly making a sound decision.

Well said, my friend.


-- John

 

[Logan5]

Interesting thread. It's given me a lot of ideas, actually.

CB900F, a1abdj, do you guys do referrals to someone up here in the Northeast? It just occurred to me that I've not done any preventative maintenance, ever, and that's probably not good.

 

[sm]

Service after the sale

It was 10pm on a Saturday night.
I was alone, locking up the last of two safes.
Old safes, older than me, still all these had maint and service on a regular basis.
Still these safes were in excellent shape, and condition.

Monday of that week, Safe Persons had came out, inspected, maintained and checked out one safe. Part of what that did was replace "parts". I won't get into details.
Some "parts" were just replaced, whether they needed it not.

Safe Number two, had two doors. I close the left one, and I did something I was taught to do (won't say) before I closed the right door, the one with the dial on it.

"Click".
It 10pm and I got a safe I cannot shut.
I won't get into all , except to say if I had shut the door, I would be not able to open it back up.
I call Safe Person at home.
I call a Lady Body Guard that lived near.
We call Police, who send UC/Plainclothes.

This safe door was big and h-e-a-v-y. I mean even with the heavy duty truck he had, this thing caused his rear end to sag!

We babysat a business with a safe with one door off.
He went back and worked with that door and brought it back.

Insurance Regs and all...still, I did get 3 complete sets of "stuff" in the event this ever happened again.

Routine stuff we did, just Safe number 1 done on Monday evening and Safe number 2 scheduled for Tues evening - but:
Tues he had an emergency with another customer.
Wed, he was out of town installing a safe
Thurs, he was called on a emergency
Fri- he took his family out to eat and take in a movie.
Safe folks have a life too.

Safe 2, routine, preventative, it was in great shape - until Mr. Murphy decided otherwise.

"Click" -it was not very loud, but then again its signaling a problem was loud!

 

[a1abdj]

do you guys do referrals to someone up here in the Northeast?

http://savta.org/iframe.php?id=23

This is not the end all be all of safe techs, but everybody who is listed here is somebody who specializes in safes.

If there's nobody there listed near you, let me know and I can dig a little deeper.

 

[RubenZ]

I don't think I've ever been in a modern home that didn't already have an alarm system installed.

Fella's;

Boy did I get to this one late! And, by the way, I'm the other safe professional that's been around here awhile.

Bolts in the corners! Not worth a bucket of used cat litter.

A major difference between a safe and an RSC is the frame. RSC's typically use several layers of bent sheet metal, ie the body guage metal, as the frame the bolts lock up behind. What you saw in the video is bolts being pried through a sheet metal frame.

A real safe uses a plate steel frame. Therefore, a real safe can use fewer bolts, does not need corner bolts, and offers superior door strength, given that the door is of equal quality. However, a maker who'd offer a plate frame & a sheet metal wrap door just doesn't, at this time to my knowledge, exist.

The incidence of bolting RSC's to the structure in my area might be 1:20, maybe. In a closet to prevent entry? LOL!! It helps, but there are easy ways around it. Charm school grads are usually aware of them. Why don't we professionals tell all on an open site like this? Because we don't feel the need to start any amateurs on their safe-cracking career, thankyouveddymuch.

You get what you pay for. However, I've seen some fairly ridiculous figures bandied about in this thread.

900F

Please, don't add too much useful info in this post Your post basically just says, buy from a professional but I can't tell you why on the net, becasue i need to hide my secrets

 

[rino451]

It's not that they don't exist. They are usually snatched up quickly by businesses that are required to use that type of safe. We see them often in our area, and they are very plentiful in large cities. We occasionally retrofit burglary rated safes into gun safes. I'm currently working on an antique plate steel safe that will be a gun safe when I'm finished.

Well, I guess that Houston, TX is a little different. I went down the list in the phone book and got one guy who had something but it was too small. After a month or so, I caved in... My guess is that there's SO much secrecy about safes (or maybe it's just ego - based solely on the impression that I got from the pro I ended up going through...) that the dealers don't deal with the little guy round here.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Gee, the point about substantial difference in protection between a sheet metal frame & a plate steel frame isn't useful?

And the urging to tell all about how to burglarize a safe is useful? To whom would that information be useful? And why? Or are there persons here whom might have another adgenda?

900F

 

[RubenZ]

And the urging to tell all about how to burglarize a safe is useful? To whom would that information be useful?

Are you kidding me? If one knows how something is broken into, one can prepare for that better. Long ago, people could break into houses with a credit card. Then they started to put a overlap in front of the door mechanism to prevent people from putting in a card. Lots of usefulness can be gained by knowing the common way safes are broken into. If you don't tell a buyer the ways YOUR safes protect against the popular ways to break into a safe then basically whatever you claim could be BS for all we know.

 

[springmom]

Will someone kindly define the acronym "RSC"?

Springmom

 

[a1abdj]

Will someone kindly define the acronym "RSC"?

The term RSC gets misused about as often as the word Safe.

RSC is short for Residential Security Container. It is a rating issued by UL based on a 5 minute brute force entry attempt using a hammer and screwdriver. The RSC rating was probably intended to be similar to California's DOJ requirements for the safe storage of firearms, although most states still have no laws to that extent.

Some safes have a RSC rating, some do not. Whether it does or doesn't makes very little difference, as the rating doesn't really mean much. I sell safes without the RSC rating that are better than some of the safes I sell with the RSC rating.

 

[sm]

Being Professional - Not Secretive in regard to not telling "everything" about a safe , especially on a Public Forum.

Professional Thugs already know about Safes, no need to encourage wanna be better crooks.

Years ago...
One Safe Company "finally" busted a Professional Thief, he would beat the Security and Safe system, and leave notes.
"You improved "that" but "this" is the weak link ...".
Got to be a game. Mfg come out and improve, and this Thief just had to go beat it.

When busted, arrangements made for this Thief to work for the Safe /Security Mfg as a consultant, researcher and developer.

-
Many folks like myself that use safes, security stuff and all understand and respect and use a Professional Courtesy around Like kind.
Safe/Lock/Alarm/Security Folks and Each other.

I do not want someone - a user like me- blabbing about what I have and I am not going to blab about what they have.

Customers are another HUGE reason! Customers are entrusting you with their valuables, family heirlooms, sentimental items - whatever.

Two way street this "Perception and Deter". Sure one wants to Deter BGs, and many times the Perception of Safes, Alarms, Locks, will deter a theif.

Also it gains Customer confidence and trust.
How many have looked at how the bank does their Safe with the lockboxes and not only the safe and all itself, - also the Protocol of getting into, and exiting that lockbox area?

True.
Back in old days, silver alarm tape was applied to windows, doors and all of a business.
It was visual.
It was a deterrent , it also was viewed by Customers and "this place has taken steps to make sure my stuff is safe".

Technology improves, better Alarms that did NOT require that tape.
Public is used to seeing that tape.

WE left the tape on for years!
Some folks we knew opened a new location and new state of the art Security and "You folks do not have the tape on the windows and doors" - the public would say to business owners, and to others in Public.

Public is not always going to want to hear, or understand that tape was not needed, or new technologies or...

Business Folks I hung with, and friends with businesses, just smiled and "Yes ma'am, sir, our Alarm company is coming out after hours to do that, easier to do after hours.

Tape was put up, sure some customers knew, some of the Public knew better, still many did not and some were NOT going to use that bank or whatever business, unless that tape was done.

Folks paid/pay attention to say a Walk in Vault, and can read, or ask what them stickers say.
"Timelocks"
"Keep Finger away from door when closing"

Once told those "keyholes" are "Day Locks" or those "clocks inside the open door are "time locks", public picks up this and Confidence gained.
Important for some Businesses, like banks.

WE did not tell them about a LOT of what we had. WE were trained to pick on being Cased, and this included some questions asked, how folks entered, walked around and viewed a business.


Buddy of mine and his family have a Walk-In Vault in the home. State of the Art, and I was invited to "view" and give input from another perspective. Granted a bit different from a normal house guest.
He and his family and I have known each other forever and he knew I would be looking from my experiences and criminals perspective.

I knew I was going to screw up. He and his wife were grinning and just the way I read them.

So I am wandering around checking everything out, and "maybe" figure out where in this house this walk-in vault is.

I found it. Steel gate come down and had me secured in that area, I could not exit, but I found it.

His system works real well. I was happy to see they paid attention on how to turn the thing off and get me out of there.
I was trying to ignore the taunts and jeers by checking out this area, the vault, but these two are ruthless in taunts and jeers.

-
It is not about Professional Safe folks being secretive to "get sales".
It is about Quality Product, Service after the sale, Customer Confidence that buys the safe.

You buy from a Professional Safe Person, you will be educated and instructed, and They will keep their mouths shut about who you are, what you have, and where it is and what (if they know) the safe is used for.

IF...big IF...if I had a trusted person, like a boss from out of town, I - I shared what I had.
Professional Safe person would call me and asked if I knew and trusted someone in the same/similar industry and they wanted to see a safe I had/ had access to.
MY call, if I said I would allow someone to see a safe in assisting them getting one Professional Safe Person.


In any industry there are those that are just carrying a product and want to sell it.
Some just have no common sense.
I have been in stores that sold "Gun Safes" and blab , out loud, in public for all to hear - I mean Point to another customer...

"Yeah old Joe there, that lives in the new Pines area, got the big white house, number 3 I believe it is, got this safe and has his Gun collection in one, in that back bedroom.
Joe? You got like what, 17 guns guns in that thing , plus wife's diamond ring, that 2 ct you got her for Anniversary, and her other jlry too in that thing..."

Hey, this idiot and others like him do this when Joe is not in the store, trying to sell another Gun Safe.
Plus other customers!


Oh that silver alarm tape?
Guess what?

Its Back! Yep, yes indeed, it is actually being used again, and in conjunction with some neat new stuff.

Surprised the hell out of some "punks" that "thought" otherwise.
I/we tend to think out of the box on some stuff...*snicker*

 

[M.E.Eldridge]

Not to veer the thread, but...


What would be a decent safe for someone living in an apartment? Normally, I would just buy the highest quality/strongest I could afford, but all of them that I've seen weigh a ton, would take up a lot of room, and would be next to impossible to move into a second story apartment--so they're all out.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

SM, thank you for that response.

Ruben, I'm not kidding you, what I'm doing is questioning your motives. So no, I'm not going to be goaded into revealing all.

900F

 

[BBQJOE]

So if someone has cased your home, and knows of all your security, dogs, alarm etc. Wouldn't he also be prepared to cut the power to the house, disarming any alarm set-up?

 

[springmom]

Ok. So...if I can get an American Security safe for less than the MSRP on the website, by buying from my local gun store or Gander Mountain, is there some safety reason that I should not? Are the ones that are sold to those guys somehow deficient? I went to their website, which seemed reasonable as it's American Security safes that are arrayed behind the guy in the video (and I'm assuming the video is therefore made by them).

And I gotta tell you, the American Security gun safes around here do not cost that much.

We happen to own one of those, and our current one will go to my oldest son when we buy a bigger one soon, so I am favorably inclined to buy another, fwiw.

 

[CB900F]

Springmom;

No, the video was not made by American Security, I know for a fact who made it. If you look closely at the video, you'll also see other brand names in the background.

I know of no difference whatsoever in the build of AMSEC safes going to big-box stores & those that go to anybody else. The difference, as a1abdj has pointed out, is in the after sale service. Simply put, don't expect any service capability from the big-box store. They are not able to provide it.

I don't know what model(s) you're looking at, or what prices are in your area, but paying a reasonable premium to a SAVTA shop is not out of line IMHO. What's reasonable is, of course, your call.

900F

 

[a1abdj]

Ok. So...if I can get an American Security safe for less than the MSRP on the website, by buying from my local gun store or Gander Mountain, is there some safety reason that I should not?

You can also probably buy that same safe for less than MSRP from a local Safe & Vault company.

In order to get safes from AMSEC, you have to make a substantial purchase. Think tractor trailer load. Although places like Gander Mountain may buy in those quantities, your local gun shop will not. If your local gun shop has them, they are buying them through a distributor, and most distributors will not knowing sell their products to anyone who is not a licensed locksmith.

In some cases the safes are different. I know the local Cabela's sells safes made by Liberty, Champion, and Cannon. All three companies build the safes to Cabela's specs. Sometimes the difference is as little as the paint job, and sometimes there are differences in the mechanics, interiors, and even dimensions.

And I gotta tell you, the American Security gun safes around here do not cost that much.

The safes cost the same from AMSEC regardless of who buys them. The more you buy, the greater discount you get. Unless somebody is buying them $1,000,000 at a time, I doubt their cost is much less than what I'm buying them for, as the discount levels out at a certain point.

What does "not that much" equate to in dollars?

 

[Librarian]

You can also probably buy that same safe for less than MSRP from a local Safe & Vault company.

Yep. When I bought one, I shopped on the web, got a ballpark price for what I wanted, and called a local dealer.
Q: "How good a price can you give me for [mfr][model]?"
A: less than I was expecting, shipped, delivered and installed.

I bought it.

I'm sure the business still made money. That's OK - then they're still there when I need something else.

 

[Millwright]

Most interesting.......IMO, the problem with any safe is its an 'attractive nuisance' if its in plain sight. 'Not the oyster born a starfish can't drill through' pretty much describes my opinion of any safe. What's important is fire protection, security and concealment, IMO. The first two is what you shop for; the last is what you devise. IOW burglars can't break into what they can't find.

From what I see posted here, concealment ranks high and difficulty of access ranks next.\, if the threat is a 'smash and grab'. But we all balance cost/benefit/risk/threat when making these sorts of purchases, don't we ? >MW

 

[sm]

So if someone has cased your home, and knows of all your security, dogs, alarm etc. Wouldn't he also be prepared to cut the power to the house, disarming any alarm set-up?

a1abdj and CB900F and folks like them can assist a customer in this area as well.

See, these Professional Safe/Lock/Alarm folks have access to information, many do not.
No. I will not share, except to say, like any trade, there is information kept up with, and exchanged between like kind, LEO, Insurance Co's and Ins Investigators.

Blabber-mouth at the store with gun safes, does not know, for instance Columbian Gangs are working areas, and how and what they are doing.
Kidnapping kids at school, bypassing alarms, cutting power lines, causing a false call across town to distract and delay Police Response.

I was born and raised in a Hi-Risk Industry.
While the street punks, and other criminals were a concern - the Professional Thugs that targeted the Hi-Risk Industry were a very very serious concern.
These folks still do and are a concern!

Hence the reason I share as I do, still I cannot, will not reveal some things about me, and specifics, as I am still a Target of Professional Thugs.

One learns to accept life on these terms.

One trains the brain, mindset and gets skill sets to Keep them and theirs safe.

When I share :
-My concerns have always been entering or exiting a structure, and answering the door.
-Entering a parking lot, exiting a vehicle, heading to a structure and then leaving that structure, getting back to vehicle , and exiting where parked.
-Driving - anywhere, anytime.
-Perceptions. What do I want to be seen as being?

I am dead serious, when I share these things.

I have been at home, get a phone call from Professional Safe Person.
"Say, we have some information and you had better listen up".
I have had UC LEOs or Body Guards "come visit" as information came to Professional Safe/Lock/Alarm folks.

"Do not go home, not until I and the Police come check it out, we got folks bypassing alarms scheduled to be in the area/ might already be here".

Too many years ago I bought a slew of Levi Jeans. Before Internet and all the idea to not buy Levi's due to anti gun stance.

"Oh, you have on Levi's Steve, they are against guns didn't you know?"
"Umm, well, I thought only the Military and Police could have guns, *shrug* guns sorta scare me anyway..."

I have done this with a straight face and was CCW-ing, and had guns in my vehicle.

That was the perception I wanted to give with that person(s) at that time.

To this day my real family has no friggin' idea what all I did, do , have done.
It will stay that way.
I fired them,I do not trust them.

Easiest way to defeat the most hi-tech, Safe/Lock/Alarm set up, Kidnap that person or family, or co-worker.

One is wise to not advertise by mouth, dress, actions, anyway, anything.

You do everything one is supposed to do. Everything, and still you turn off a hi-tech alarm , unlock a hi-tech lock, step into the doorway and the SOB is inside with gun at your face.
Your evening plans just got changed in a real damn hurry!
BTDT and .357 full house loads are real damn loud inside!


Software, not Hardware.

 

[ChickenHawk]

???

 

[willbrink]

"RSC is short for Residential Security Container. It is a rating issued by UL based on a 5 minute brute force entry attempt using a hammer and screwdriver."

How long do you think it would take a person with a hammer and screwdriver to get into an AMSEC BF series RSC?