buying first all-around general use rifle

[NickEllis]

In the past, I have had really wonderful advice from y'all on buying firearms (probably the main reason I ended up with my Kimber for CCW, with which I remain tremendously pleased). As I build my own arsenal, let me say that I am trying to revolve around practicality. I don't have alot of money, and am trying to find the necessities. I have a great shotgun (870 .12), a great CCW (Kimber Tactical .45), a nice little 10/22 for plinking and teaching the kids how to shoot. For now, the next step leads to the question of all-purpose rifles.

I am looking for a reliable, high-quality all-purpose rifle, preferably with the capability detachable mags, which can be used for the sundry purposes of a truck-gun, carry-in-the-woods or on-a-four-wheeler, shoot the wild russian boars tearing up the back 40, tactical self-defense. It would be relatively easy to shoot/maintain/clean. The price range would be affordable, preferably in the $500. The images that come to mind include AK/SKS/lookalikes, FALs, possibly Mini-'s, etc., but these are just my own ignorant initial options. I would want something that fits this description as I buy it, not something that a load of money and time later I could accessorize to fit.

On a similar and equally important topic, reg. ammo choice: I will freely admit my ignorance, and confess that I have absolutely no knowledge of any of the european rounds (i.e., 7.62X????? etc... et al). I would appreciate hearing a perspective on what is good, and matched to the gun described above. This involves cheap, readily accessible ammo, but reliable and able to get the job done. If in a european, could you also explain how that relates to the american caliber system?

We aren't looking at expensive exotics here; we aren't looking at deer rifles; we aren't looking at high-precision long-range tack-driving sniper rifles. I know this may sound silly to some people, but this is an attempt at taking the middle ground: I just don't have the cash to buy three or four rifles, and am trying to find something that will do the trick. I am not asking that it be the perfect gun: there are always pros and cons, but what are the options out there that do a good job fitting the above description

As a last note: I have noticed several posts recently about +/- of Mini's, and would also like to add that I don't want this to turn into another Mini- bashing session (or session in general, regardless of the gun!). I simply want to know what the options are, and what choice of ammunition would be a good choice for my needs.

Anyone who would be interested in commenting, I would be thankful for their reply.

Nick

 

[gm]

theres alot of rifles that fit your needs. why not a nice surplus sks.they are not expensive, the ammo is very reasonable in price and they are extremly simple to maintain, not to mention durable.

the sks has a 10 shot fixed mag and stripper clips are cheap and one can learn to zip them in the action,press them in and go very quickly.the 7.62x 39mm round they shoot isnt meant for long ranges but alot of folks do use them on deer where its legal. its basically a 30 caliber round, similiar to a shorter version of the .308 round or 7.62 nato round. the good thing is you can keep those stripper clips loaded indefinatly and just pop one in when needed.theres chest pouches available dirt cheap and they hold nearly 200 rnds on stripper clips. there are sks rifles that accept ak mags but these are more rare.


theres russian made varients,yugoslavian,albanian,chineese and perhaps others.each has its own thing thats folks like,they are very popular and some people will buy one and end up collecting them from different countries,its very easy to do with their low cost..varying from 100 bucks to 400 bucks


I dont know what you can get a FN-FAL for there but here, they start right around the 500 usd amount. If I wanted more power, Id go with a FN-FAL chambered in standard 7.62 nato.they are nice with the adjustable gas regulator,you can adjust the regulator for the ammo or if the gun starts getting fouled and itll keep on going.


either one will put the wild hogs on the run.

 

[Commissar Gribb]

if you're willing to spend some money, they sell some nice FAL rifles at dsarms

www.dsarms.com

 

[Brian Williams]

1894 either Marlin or Winchester in 30-30.
Not detachable mags, but well worth the look.

 

[Pocomoke]

Is there any reason that you've eliminated lever action rifles?

They fit your specs with the exception of the detachable mags, but then I didn't see "extended goblin clearing" in that list. And if that social situation does arise then one just 'shoots one loads one'. You can carry more ammo that way, pound for pound.

They are all the embodiment of the American rifle, available in a wide variety of readily available calibers, ranging from .22LR to .45-70 Gov. and of course, the classic 30-30, which is a tad better than the combloc 7.62x39. You might be surprised that most will group better than the comblocs.

They come in short trapper length and up. With the 26" barrel a Marlin 1895 CB is a fine long range ridle suitable for most all NA large game.

Did I mention that they're a lot of fun? And besides they were good enough for John Wayne weren't they? ;>)

 

[Pocomoke]

umm that should be rifle, not ridle.
...Marlin 1895 CB is a fine long range ridle..

 

[NickEllis]

Extended Goblin Clearing +1

Thanks for the replies. I have been looking at SKS, and if I can find a good unissued one those might be the ticket. Can someone tell me what the difference is between the SKS and the AK platform? Advantages/Dis..? I guess the main problem is I don't know the alternatives to either the AK/similar or an AR/similar platforms. If I WERE to go the AK line, what are the cartrige options?

As for lever actions, basically its a question of loading speed... I think we can put "extended goblin clearning" on the list... thanks for the clarification. This rifle would serve as an available mid-range defense /SHTF gun, but of course not as the "reach out and touch someone" Rem 700 .308 style gun, thats kinda the next thing on the list (deer/elk/sniper etc). We are talking about a main rifle for defense kind of deal.

I do like the lever actions, have a model 94 in 30/30 and its great for brush and short range. However, doesn't seem to fit the description of defense gun.

 

[NickEllis]

For example...

For example, on a separate thread in this forum, under "Which Guns do you Need," I loved what Preacherman gave for necessities....:

1. Deep-concealment handgun for pocket use and backup to main CCW.
2. Main CCW handgun.
3. .22LR handgun for training/plinking.
4. .22LR rifle for ditto.
5. Main rifle for hunting.
6. Main rifle for defense/SHTF use.
7. Shotgun for hunting.
8. Shotgun for defense/SHTF use.

I would say I am working on filling out that list, and this gun would fit in the "6. Main Rifle for Defense SHTF" category, and practical enough for the daily use as described above. Hope that clarifies.

 

[chadintex]

Since you already have a intermediate cartridge M94, I would suggest a more powerful round. I know you said detachable mag, but have you considered a Garand? 8 rounds of '06 will take care of most problems that don't require a platoon of Marines.

If that doesn't suit you, then AK-47 or SKS. There is a reason there are so many of them. The AK and SKS both use the 7.62x39 cartridge, the ballistics are comparable to your 30-30. The SKS comes with a ten round fixed mag that is easily loaded with stripper clips. You can replace the standard mag with a 30 rounder, but finding one that works is like finding a woman that doesn't complain. The AK takes detachable mags of 5 to 100 round capacity. The SKS usually gets a slight edge in accuracy. SKS is half the price of the AK and accessories are less. The only reason I suggest AK over SKS is that if you don't want an 8 shot Garand, then you probably want capacity. If that is wrong, then I suggest the SKS.

 

[NickEllis]

Garand

Interesting that you suggest a Garand. Nope, doesn't need to have a DM, just threw that in as it seems to be an easy reload. I admit I don't know much about a Garand (that might seem heresy in some circles); ammo choices in a Garand? What's the practical difference between that and a Mini-30?

Ok, so lets take AK for capacity, and Garand/SKS for accuracy or whatever. 8 vs 10 rounds doesn't make that much difference. Between the Garand and the SKS, preferences? Reliability? Drop it in the mud, which will sing for you? Ease of field-stripping? Care/parts? If we are talking technicals: which has better - accuracy, trigger, barrel, other things of concern and interest?

Nick

 

[bratch]

If your thinking AK look at Correias group buy. A top shelf AK available in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 5.56. They are said to be quite a bit more accurate than your average Century import.

The Garand will be more accurate and have a lot farther reach than any 7.62x39 but show me '06 ammo for $80/1000.

Garands in servicable shape start at $500 SKS at $100 another consideration.

 

[chadintex]

Power, the Garand has a lot more power. Garand has better sights. I haven't done torture tests on either, but they both have a great reputation for battlefield reliability. One thing about the Garand is that since it works on an en bloc clip, you can not top off the ammo if you fire a few rounds. You have to shoot or eject all 8 rounds then insert another clip.

Run a search here on Garand and you will find mucho info.

 

[22luvr]

SKS all the way....

My son owns a Chinese Norinco SKS and I own a Yugo 59/66 SKS. This is one of the most versatile rifles on the planet.

You can modify them for 30 round magazines, special stocks, and scopes. The aftermarket for the SKS is endless.

I got 750 rounds of ammo for about $70 online, which isn't as cheap as it used to be but probably better than any other similar round.

Both of our SKS's have been 100% reliable, regardless of the ammo used and the prevailing conditions.

I have friends who go deer hunting with scoped SKS's and they make a pretty good defensive weapon with the standard 10 rounds in the mag.

You can pick one up for as cheap as $85 up to $200, depending upon the manufacture location and condition.

Think about it.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Can someone tell me what the difference is between the SKS and the AK platform? Advantages/Dis..? I guess the main problem is I don't know the alternatives to either the AK/similar or an AR/similar platforms. If I WERE to go the AK line, what are the cartrige options?

Here are the wikipedia pages for the SKS and the AK-47. They are both Russian designed rifles chambered for 7.62x39. The major difference is that the SKS has a fixed magazine and uses stripper clips, while the AK uses detachable magazines. Either can be had cheaply for under $300.

I don't think you have a lot of options for caliber when it comes to AKs. The obvious one is 7.62x39. There are some that have been modified to shoot .223, but I don't know much about them. There is also a version chambered in 5.45x39, which is sort of the Russian answer to .223.

If you want a cheap rifle, the AK is probably your best bet. They are available very cheap, are extremely reliable, and ammo is dirt cheap.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Why not a Remington 7400 in .30-06?

It's in the right price range, 10 shot mags are available, and a .30-06 has a LOT more power than a 7.62x39... you can even get it with a short barrel and tactical black stock. And trust me.. a 165 gr Sierra Game King will do a number on hogs.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/centerfire/7400syn.htm

 

[bratch]

Rob,

I've heard alot of bad things about the semi-Rems. I actually have one myself but never use it. I don't know if I'd recommend a finicky rifle as a general do-all SHTF rifle.

Your experience may differ and even though I have one I haven't used it enough to get an opinion on it.

I sent you a PM

 

[Mulliga]

Ok, so lets take AK for capacity, and Garand/SKS for accuracy or whatever. 8 vs 10 rounds doesn't make that much difference. Between the Garand and the SKS, preferences? Reliability? Drop it in the mud, which will sing for you? Ease of field-stripping? Care/parts? If we are talking technicals: which has better - accuracy, trigger, barrel, other things of concern and interest?

Garand vs. (Yugo) SKS

About equally reliable. Not sure about field-stripping a Garand, but an SKS is very, very simple to field strip and maintain. .30-06 is much more expensive than 7.62x39, though.

I suggest going for an AK. Better ergonomics than the SKS, much higher capacity, just as reliable, and about as accurate. You can get the standard Century WASRs for ~$330 - near the bottom of the barrel in terms of AKs, but still a fair deal. The VEPRs that are in the group buy are not true AKs, but they take AK mags, and they are built like tanks, so that would be your best bet if you want to spend ~$500.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=140350&highlight=VEPR

 

[Ash]

I would say go with the lever gun as it is the most benign looking rifle there is. I love FAL's, have owned AK's and SKS's, but in a hurricane/natural disaster situation, or dealing with intruders, the lever gun looks like what good old Uncle Joe kept above the fireplace, not what them terrorists carry while shooting in the air in large gatherings. A lever gun is more powerful and more accurate than an SKS or AK but is much less likely to scare people or, more importantly, cops. Now sure, the police will be much happier relieving you of your rifle while they sort things out, but you are much less likley to be labled a militia nut with one.

Don't get me wrong, now. I believe strongly in the 2nd Ammendment and actually believe that each of us should be armed so as to be made part of the militia in time of dire emergency. I think each person should be completely competent with the use of a main battle rifle or intermediate-cartridge self loader. I believe the AK to be a great combat rifle and fills a great role in time of war. But, a good old Winchester or Marlin will do everything needed, will cost less than an SKS or AK (or at least not much more than some SKS's), and will not get your arrested or searched if found in your trunk. Second to that would be a Garand, which still doesn't look as bad as an AK, but those things are expensive.

Ash

 

[bukijin]

I think my ruger 77 international is an excellent all round rifle. scoped, bolt action in .308. No detachable magazine but I like that. If you are going to get a rifle, may as well get a decent calibre in my opinion.
Apart from that, I thought it was generally agreed on this board that the lever-action 30-30 is THE general purpose rifle.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Look for an AK type rifle. 7.62x39 is good, but 5.45x39 is a flatter shooter. I like 5.45x39 myself, but 7.62x39 is far cheaper.

If you want something in a full rifle cartridge, Saiga makes something in .308 or you can get a Dragunov-type rifle in 7.62x54R.

7.62x54R is also dirt cheap which makes for good practice. You can get better ammo too should you desire.

 

[Sunray]

"...Garand vs. SKS..." A Garand will generally shoot circles around any SKS or Mini-30 and do so at much longer range.
The one thing about the Mini-30, aside from the dismal accuracy and the excessive list price, that everyone seems to forget is that its bore diameter is .308". The SKS and AK bore is .311". American commercial 7.62 x 39 is loaded with .308" bullets. So you'd be looking at using Eastern Bloc, usually corrosive, surplus ammo. Cheap, yes, but you get what you pay for.

 

[Jaeger]

Jungle Carbine

I'm surprised that noone has mentioned the Lee Enfield Jungle Carbine. It uses the powerful .303 British, has great sights, it's light, short and handy. It uses 10 rnd detatchable box mags and also load with stripper clips. With a bit of practice the rate of fire is quite impressive.
Durability and reliability is legendary.
You can get different stocks, scope mounts etc. should you so desire.
If you are not stuck on a spray and pray gun (Not making fun, I own many of them) the old JC is tough to beat! I absolutely love mine!

 

[rwc]

A plain old bolt action rifle will have the same boring demeanor as a lever gun and (generally speaking) better accuracy, possibly lighter weight, etc.

As for goblins, if you have a couple five round magazines for your bolt action rifle and you are hitting what you are aiming at...

 

[SamlautRanger]

Go with another 30-30 Marlin lever action or a Marlin 1894 44 mag lever action. All around good rifles for medium game hunting and self defense/SHTF scenarios that one may encounter as a civilian in the USA.

Dont see the need for a SKS, AR 15, Ak 47, FAL, etc.. for self defense-unless you are planning on going to Iraq or Afghanistan or elsewhere. Just not realistic. If you are buying an assualt rifle for collecting or for training, then OK. But, come on, for self defense. IF you live in a neighbor hood where you think you really need a assualt rifle for self defense, I would move out of there in a hurry and relocate. Dont see that though.

For the price of most assualt rifles you can get a good lever action and put some Ghost ring sights on it or have a gun smith touch up the action. Get a good sling and store 6 extra rounds on the butt.

 

[NickEllis]

Thanks for all the great replies. There was alot in that, and I will be picking through it kinda slowly. Interesting, on the Lee Enfield suggestion. I will have to look at that more. The group buy sounds great, wow, nice price. As for the lever action, I can totally see the benefits. My Winchester is just a bit slow on the reload, tight on the action, and tends to gunk pretty bad. I have heard alot on Marlins though, and will look at those too. Sorry that this is short, I just ran into a family emergency, and will be tied up pretty bad for a day or so. Thanks for the great advice.

Nick