buying first all-around general use rifle

[mountain_cowboy]

I currently have two lever actions, an AK, a SKS, Rem 700 bolt, and an FAL. If I were to get rid of all but one of them, the FAL is the one I'd keep. Surplus ammo is pretty cheap and readily available. Detachable mags are incredibly cheap and easy to find. I have a nice DSA scope mount on it, and with a scope mounted, it can get MOA accuracy. It's the .308 round, which, in my opinion is the best all around rifle cartridge. All parts are readily available for replacement or repair. Plus, it's knock-around tough, and it just looks cool. The FAL is accurate, reliable, affordable, convenient, and powerful. Everything you need, and more.

 

[eab]

I would say go with the SKS or a Siaga. Heres why:

Ammo is cheap, cheaper then, lever action loads, cheaper then .303 Brit and .30-06.

Semi autos are nice for use in an everyday gun.

Don't have to clean them after everytime you shoot them or once a week or what have you.

In there stock form the do not look like killer .mil guns. If I was to have these as a every day gun I would leave them like that. I just can not see hunting with a pistol grip. I just do not get that......

 

[Brian Dale]

I just cannot see hunting with a pistol grip. I just do not get that......

Ergonomics. Whatever contributes to a clean, humane kill is good.

 

[Ivy Mike]

I'd like to apologize for not explaining my ammo choices regarding European calibers.

7.62x39 (the ammo for the SKS and some AK models) is roughly equivalent to the American 30-30. The commie round may not achieve the same range and shooting surplus, while cheaper, may cost you in accuracy and require you to clean corrosive salts from the gun. It's not a big task, but you must remember to do it. Ammonia besed cleaners do this quite well. When I mention costing you accuracy, I don't mean you'll never hit your intended target, but you aren't going to de-wing gnats at hundreds of yards.

5.45x39 is the updated round for the AK pattern rifles. Most believe this was in response to the American and NATO adoption of the 5.56x45 round. While some claim that the Russian round isn't as effective against people, the Afghan's who first faced it while fighting the Soviets called it "the poison bullet." 5.56x45 NATO (.223 Remington...sorta) is more readily available than 5.45x39. You can get 5.45 fairly cheaply online or at gun shows. The nice thing about 5.45x39 is that most of it is fairly modern and isn't usually corrosive. You can also get decent commercial ammo (mostly from Russia) for not much money. I'll restate that 5.45 is a flat shooting cartridge. I really enjoy shooting it and recoil is almost nill. A nice Arsenal Inc. SLR-105R is what gobbles up my supply of poison bullets.

7.62x54R
Ah, the old russian rimmed. 7.62x54R has been around forever. The Russians adopted this round at the end of the 19th century and I believe they still use it today. It is a little down on power compared to the old .30-06, but has the potential to go hundreds of yards. The biggest reason we don't see it going that far on a regular basis is because of the rifles that shoot it. The Mosin-Nagant is the Soviet bolt action that served the com-bloc till the 1950's when it was retired. Other countries continued to use them. I remember reading that our soldiers took them off enemies in Vietnam and even found some in use in Iraq. The guns are built incredibly strong and soldier proof. They don't have great triggers, the butt plates were made by the Marquis du Sade and they aren't very pretty. They are, however, dirt cheap to obtain and you can find some that have very little, if any use. Ammo is probably one of the cheapest to obtain although a lot of it is corrosive.
Everyone should have a M-N in their collection. You can go for the Mosin-Nagant 1891-30 if you'd like a full length rifle or the M38 or M44 (the latter has a permanently attached bayonet) if you'd like carbine. The fireballs are legend though. Great fun to touch off at night just to see the flames from the end of your barrel. They are also stupidly simple in design so even a wannabe gunsmith such as my self had no trouble touching up the trigger.

I myself own an Mosin Nagant M44, and Aresenal Inc (commercial bulgarian) SLR-105R (AK74 in 5,45x39) and am waiting for Big-5 to put some SKS back on sale. I also own a Makarov from Aresenal Inc chambered in .380 ACP. They may be kinda ugly, but those Russian's sure know how to build a reliable gun.

 

[NickEllis]

Let me express my thanks for the last post regarding ammo. That just about made my day, as it cleared up alot of misunderstanding. This thread is copy and past city.

Nick

 

[Limeyfellow]

I would go with the SKS. There is absolutely loads of 60s and 70s surplus ammo that is non corrosive out there, you can mod them to accept 30 round detachable magazine for about $10-15 a magazine and they are really easy to maintain. Problems is that the range or accuracy isn't near as good as a bolt action but thats to be expected.

If you want a full size bolt action than go with a garand, an enfield or a nice mauser, though their ammo tends to me expensive. I particularly like using my enfields due to their simplicity and reliability that can hardly be matched by anything, and have very little recoil indeed (especially compared to the likes of the Garand), though good surplus ammo for .303 British is about gone leaving evil pakistani tripe left, but you should be able to pick up good commercial ammo at about $8 a box of 20.

 

[grimjaw]

Marlin 1894C. Action is better out of the box, it's easier to clean, I wouldn't be afraid to throw it in a truck or get it dirty. Shoots .357 or .38 Special, accurate and lethal out to 100 yards with .357, scope or better open sights are available. Less than $400 new, better used. Will probably be one of the last rifles on a ban list. Ammunition importation probably won't be blocked by either party, because it's mostly made in the US. Share ammo with any number of revolvers. Hot-loaded factory ammo (Grizzly, Buffalo Bore) is available approaching .30-30 ballistics. Recoil is comparable to 7.62x39. Can I talk up this rifle any more?

I have a Winchester M94 in that caliber. I think of the two manufacturers like women. (ahem) Winchester is more attractive, but her inner workings are more complicated and I don't really want to get inside there to take them apart. I'm always afraid to muss her up while we're out on a date.

Marlin isn't quite as pretty, but she's more versatile, less worried about tracking through the mud, and she spits where she's supposed to (side eject).

If I can't hit it with the first nine shots, I probably won't hit it with the next nine. Detachable magazines are irrelevant, IMO.

jmm

 

[heypete]

I own an SKS, and would highly recommend it as well. The Yugo M59/66 is a little heavier than the Yugo M59s, Norinco Type 56s, and the other SKS's without the grenade launching attachments on the front. Still, I like it. I'll probably end up getting a non-GL-equipped SKS soon as the 59/66 is a bit heavy to be lugging through the woods all day and the slightly fatter grip area of the stock doesn't fit quite as well as the skinnier ones.

I also am a big fan of the Kel-Tec SU-16 (I have the "B" model). Chambered in 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington, it has many of the benefits of the AR (strong locking chamber, uses AR magazines, etc.) and the AK (gas piston design keeps the action clean, reliable as all get-out) without looking nearly as scary. Yes, it's a black rifle...but it's doesn't have the same "evil" looks that ARs and AKs have. It's also a good pound lighter than the AR-15, which is a plus.

 

[Ivy Mike]

While the Marlin is probably a great, reliable arm, I'd skip the suggestion of .357 from a long gun. It certainly packs a decent punch, but it is no substitute for a rifle cartridge like the 30-30 or 7.62x39 to say nothing of full power cartridges like 7.62x54R or .308.

If you're going to buy a rifle make sure its chambered in something decent. 357 is for handguns.

I'd also skip the duckbill magazines some have suggested for the SKS. They tend to be hit or miss as far as reliability goes. Keep the standard 10 rd magazine and enjoy one of the most reliable semi-auto designs ever made. They are rugged and will work in the nastiest conditions with the poorest ammo.

 

[roo_ster]

Any reason you wouldn't consider a bolt-action?

The milsurps can be fed quickly with a stripper clip, to handle the hordes of goblins and mutant ninja zombe bears.

Since you already have an intermediate-power rifle/carbine, I would suggest a more powerful SHTF rifle. (Them MNJ bears can be tough.)

Nicer & more pricey options include the Swede mausers in 6.5x55 (96 for the looong rifle, 96/38 & 38 for the short rifle).

Cheaper options include the various Mosin Nagants in 7.62x54 (M91 long , M38 & M44 short), Yugo Mausers in 8x57 (M48 & M48A), Schmidt-Rubin K31 in 7.5x55 (suh-weet!) and various Enfileds in .303 Brit or 7.62NATO.

These old bolties were designed for a pretty serious sustained rate of fire and are built like tanks. With the Swedes and Schmidt-Rubins, you get build quality unmatched by all but the most pricey custom gunmakers.

Last, the nice thing about milsurp bolties is when you run out of stripper clips in the middle of a goblin-shoot, you can load loose rounds without having to first stuff them in a magazine.

Good luck on your hunt.

 

[crofrog]

I'm going to have to say an AR-10 or AR-15. If you need more power for the farrel hogs than .223 can offer the AR-10 is a great choice in nato .308.

Something like a a3 or a2 with a fixed or collaspible stock and a 16 or 20 barrel will make a great gun. It's easy to add optics and a wepon light (imho absoultly critical for IFF at night) if you want to go that route. Pretty reliable quick, on the reload, accurate. 900 get's you a brand spanking new one.

The descision I came to after asking myself this almost exact same question was an AR-15a3 with a collapisble stock incase I need to shoot it in the winter and a 16 inch full weight barrel for better reliablity and accuracy and manuverablity indoors. I still want to get a surefire m3 or something. I've not mounted any optics yet, but would like to get either an acog or a eotech. I also prefer the a2 style iron sights over just about anything else I've picked up minus the uzi.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[drinks]

Rifle

Why not a Mossburg bolt action, $250 , or a Savage with accutrigger, $350 or so ?
Get a decent rifle in a standard and widely available cartridge and something that can be reloaded easily, .243. 260. 270, 280, 7-08, .308 or .30-06.
Don

 

[TexAg]

Second on the Saiga

I got a 16" bbl 7.62x39 two months ago for only $220 NIB. You can get one in .308 for around $280 I believe. I got it for pretty much the same reasons you posted, general SHTF, pig hunting and a fun plinker. With 7.62x39 you get CHEAP ammo and it is comparable to .30-30, however something not mentioned, it has less drop than the .30-30 out at 100+ yards. It only comes with a 10 round mag, but can easily be modified to take standard 30 round AK mags if you swap out some parts with US made parts to make it compliant with the laws. I love mine, good accuracy (3-4" at 100 yards iron sights), I am even thinking about putting a low power scope on it to see how good I can get. I don't even mind the 10 round mags personally, they don't stick way out like high cap mags do. I like the sporter stock too, I'm not used to shooting pistol grip styles and I prefer the look. And I sure don't mind getting it dirty or accidentally dinged up, its cheap and being an AK its durable.

 

[PAC 762]

Well, you obviously have at least a few hundred to spend. Why not get your C&R ffl ($30) and buy a $100 sks, $100 endfield No4Mk1, $100 M48, a $80 K31, and a $60 mosin. Try all five, and decide what you like the best and sell the rest. Then shoot someone elses AK, M1, levergun, and FAL, and use the money made from selling the C&R's, to buy the one of those too.

This may you have your favorite cheapo C&R gun for the truck, along with a slightly pricier gun for the house. And you can stay within a reasonable budget in the meantime.

I personally hate SKS's, after owning several, but most people seem to love them. To me, they are awkward and difficult to shoot well. The AK would be my choice for a cheap, short range, ultrarelaiable and handy carbine. The Garand would be my choice as a more target/longer range/hunting rifle. The FAL is my choice for a full-on battlerifle.... but each person has their subjective preferences.

 

[RJChapman]

Often overlooked when SHTF is discussed, is the duration and extent of SHTF. If the SHTF is not limited to your home, neighborhood or locality, but extends to the region, or country, the ammunitions likely to be in greatest supply will be that used by the combating forces. Perhaps your choice of a genral purpose defensive rifle should revolve around the calibers the government forces will use.

When I was young, I vividly recall my dad predicting that the next major war the US fought would be on our home soil. While those words have not, per se', proven to be true, they have served as a guiding foundation of my firearms purchases. First and foremost, I always maintain arms that will chamber the ammunition of the probable combating forces.

After that need is met, I start working on the rest of my wish list.

 

[itgoesboom]

Often overlooked when SHTF is discussed, is the duration and extent of SHTF. If the SHTF is not limited to your home, neighborhood or locality, but extends to the region, or country, the ammunitions likely to be in greatest supply will be that used by the combating forces. Perhaps your choice of a genral purpose defensive rifle should revolve around the calibers the government forces will use.

True, and a very good point.

But at the same time, if you manage to find ammunition, chances are you will find a firearm with it as well.

I.G.B.

 

[bad LT]

Since you posted "shoot the wild russian boars" as one of your jobs for your future rifle, please choose something that makes a bigger hole than a 5.56mm or a 5.45mm (them russian boars are tough)

 

[NickEllis]

I have to admit, PAC 762's suggestion appeals to me... buy more guns!

As far as AR's everything I have looked at is right around the $900 range and up.... sorry, just don't have it.

I actually resonate well with that... AK for carbine, Garand for reaching out a bit, FAL for full battle rifle. I am hearing the lever guys, and appreciate the tone. Probably just gonna have to get one of those Marlins on general principle, even if it doesn't seem to fit exactly what I am looking for.

Ammo wise, I am thinking 'go with what makes the bigger whole...' 30 cal or equivalents..?

Nick

 

[NickEllis]

Can anyone tell me more about that Keltec SU 16? Used prices? Reliability? Compared with an AK... etc. Haven't heard much about it before (again, displaying my ignorance with full color

As far as buying used.... I heard someone say a couple days ago noone ever lost money on buying used guns... though this may be a truism, is that a good way to go? Of course, one needs to be careful about condition and all, but for what we are describing here. Is there really a need to go and order a NIB?

Nick

 

[GunGoBoom]

For your criteria, I'd recommend a Saiga AK-style in .308 Win, with the 16" bbl. If the price cap weren't there, then I'd say an AR10-type rifle, espec. the Bushmaster .308 AR style. Maybe a good used FAL.

Or, if you're satisfied that a "intermediate-powered" rifle (.223, 7.62x39) will fit your needs more than a "full-powered" rifle such as a .308, then I'd look at an AK47-style rifle, an AR15 (used or home-build to get *close* to your price range), a Daewoo DR200/DR300, or the Kel-Tec SU-16C.

Finally, if the budget is really squeezed, then grab a Lee Enfield rifle in .303 Brit - something like a No.4 Mk1 or No.1 Mk 3.

 

[NickEllis]

lets say, just for the sake of argument, I was to get a Saiga in .308. In y'alls experience, is it hit or miss trying to find one? First place to start looking would be around in consignment/gun stores, etc? Are there good places online? I know we aren't talking about "miracle deals" here, but if you suddenly decided, "this week, gonna buy a Saiga" where would you start looking? I guess that can go for the other platforms previously discussed as well, but probably varies quite a bit between types of guns. I know thats pretty broad... sorry.

Nick

 

[GunGoBoom]

Oop, just noticed that the Daewoos aren't cheap like they used to be, so nix that. And yes the Saigas have mostly dried up too - dang, I got mine for $289 brand new. I'd wait for someone to start re-importing them again - shouldn't be long, supposedly (I hear someone calling themselves Russian-American Armory is going to import them), or try to find one under $400, maybe even $500 or so. If you can't, then I'd look at maybe a PTR91 (G3 clone), or a good used FAL.

Have your local FFL get one of these shipped, after you pay for it:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=32781835

This is as good of a place as any to mention that a certain pet peeve about gun auctions like that one really peeve me... OK, if an auction is marked "No Reserve" then by definition (supposedly) any bid can win it, if it's the highest bid, even if $1. But there's a "starting bid" of $500, EVEN THOUGH there is NO bid history! (zero bids). So if there's no bid history, then the "starting bid" BS does in fact completely negate the idea of No Reserve - I don't think that gunbroker or whoever should allow "no reserve" to be printed unless there is truly a $0 starting bid. Frankly, this amounts to outright fraud IMO.

 

[ny32182]

Since you already have a lever gun, I imagine that if that is what you wanted for this one, this thread would not exist.

IMO, the best all around, general purpose rifle in the world is a "higher end" AK variant in 7.62x39. (VEPR K, SA-M7)

-If I ever NEED a gun (for self defense), the last thing in the world I'm going to care about is what it looks like. I'm only going to care about how it performs, and in my mind, 30 quick rounds between quick reloads beats 7 slower rounds between agonizingly slow reloads all day long. Of course, if your opinion differs, you are welcome to it.

-Hunting: Most AK style rifles have a scope rail that you can utilize if you so desire. 7.62x39 is considered adequate for small and medium size game. Soft point/expanding bullets for hunting can be found everywhere, even at Walmart around here (as an illustration of its commonality). I'm not aware of any condition that makes hunting with a pistol grip more difficult than hunting without one.

-Mags are extremely tough, cheap, reliable, and available.

-For ammo selection, you have everything you could ever need from dirt cheap plinking ammo to soft point hunting ammo, to Mil-surp.

-I don't even have to mention the toughness and reliability of most AK styles.

The AK isn't the best at any particular endeavor, but it CAN be used for almost anything you could need a rifle for.... which is why it is the best all around, IMO.

 

[ny32182]

This is as good of a place as any to mention that a certain pet peeve about gun auctions like that one really peeve me... OK, if an auction is marked "No Reserve" then by definition (supposedly) any bid can win it, if it's the highest bid, even if $1. But there's a "starting bid" of $500, EVEN THOUGH there is NO bid history! (zero bids). So if there's no bid history, then the "starting bid" BS does in fact completely negate the idea of No Reserve - I don't think that gunbroker or whoever should allow "no reserve" to be printed unless there is truly a $0 starting bid. Frankly, this amounts to outright fraud IMO.

Huh? How is it fraud? You know the exact terms before you place your bid. All that raising the starting bid with no reserve does, is make the reserve price public knowledge. Personally, I much prefer this method to having a secret reserve, where the buyers have to waste their time bidding up bit by bit until they find out what the seller really wants. If they don't have a secret reserve, and just set the starting price at whatever they want for it, I know instantly whether I want the gun/should continue watching the auction/etc. By me at least, it is much appreciated.

 

[JShirley]

SU-16 seems to be a pretty good rifle from most reports, and I plan on getting one eventually. It will be less useful on large(r) game, but should work great for a lightweight varmint/defensive rifle.

For inexpensive knock-around rifle, get an SKS, and put a Mojo peep on it.

AK is "better" for dedicated defensive action because of the shorter OAL and detachable mag, but SKS is hard to beat unless you really feel you "need" the other rounds.

John