Buying my first hand gun

[AZAviator]

I asked an online dealer today about a gun purchase and they asked me a funny question about where I lived. Truth is I physically live in Arizona but my place of residence "legally" is Washington. The dealer online said they could only ship the gun to my place of legal residence. :banghead: So my question is can I call back and tell them I my place is in Arizona and just have it sent there? How are they going to know?

Thanks

 

[HK G3]

This should be an entirely moot point, as they should be shipping to an FFL that you have specified to them.

The way it's written, you're making it sound like they want to ship to your door, which is unlawful.

 

[AZAviator]

Well I dont think its unlawful if I own my own FFL, which is probably what they are assuming. So yeah, I guess it is a moot point. I was more under the impression that they were saying the gun had to be "registered" in the state you reside in. As I said this is my first HANDGUN and unfamiliar with related laws etc

 

[Lonestar49]

I asked an online dealer today about a gun purchase and they asked me a funny question about where I lived. Truth is I physically live in Arizona but my place of residence "legally" is Washington. The dealer online said they could only ship the gun to my place of legal residence.

*So my question is can I call back and tell them I my place is in Arizona and just have it sent there? How are they going to know?

...

*Possibly you would have to show to forms, types, of proof, such as a current drivers license and, like what I use, here in Calif., a current car registration that shows same name, addy, and state.. 2 required forms of proof for me to legally buy a gun in Calif. when an out of state gun arrives at my FFL from another FFL.


Ls

 

[David E]

Well I dont think its unlawful if I own my own FFL,

Well, DO you "own your own FFL?" By how you phrased that, I must conclude NO, you do not, especially if this is your first handgun. And FFL holders know the laws (or should)

which is probably what they are assuming.

Assuming or not, if you buy a handgun out of state and they ship it straight to YOU, Joe Schmuck, and you do not have an FFL, then it's a violation of federal law.

There are one or two exceptions to this, but they do not apply here.

Don't "assume" anything. Do it legally.

 

[Old Fuff]

If you are going to use your FFL it depends on two things:

What is the address on it, because they have to ship to that address, and only that address.

Is the license current? They will check to see.

If the license is O.K. the procedure is to send a signed copy (and don't use black ink) of the FFL along with your order to the seller. In some cases you can FAX them a copy of your license.

They will send your order to the specified address on the license, and include a copy of their own license.

If (or when) they get a copy of your license they may offer you wholesale prices.

As an individual (no FFL) you can't order across state lines, unless the gun is delivered to an FFL dealer.

 

[Sam1911]

So my question is can I call back and tell them I my place is in Arizona and just have it sent there? How are they going to know?

Can you purchase a handgun from a dealer in AZ? You really need to contact a dealer in you area and find out if he will accept shipment of a handgun and transfer it for you.

As a non-licensed individual (you're not a dealer) you cannot have the gun shipped to you, and when you have it shipped to your local licensed dealer, he will have to transfer it to you just as if it was one from his own stock. And he can't do that if you are legally a resident of another state.

-Sam

 

[JTQ]

AZAviator wrote,

Truth is I physically live in Arizona but my place of residence "legally" is Washington.

Pardon my assumption, but this leads me to believe you are a military member stationed in Arizona, but kept his state of legal residence as Washington (because you love the green trees and not because you won't pay state income taxes).

My firearms were bought in California and Maine while I was stationed in those states and a legal resident of Ohio (still had an Ohio driver's license and paying Ohio income taxes) for military pay purposes. However, I had a residence in California and Maine at the time of the purchases which allowed me to legally make the purchases.

 

[AZAviator]

Let me clear some things up:

-No I dont own an FFL
-My legal address is in WA because its where I have the FAA send all my certificates and documents (Im a commercial pilot)
-I have bought guns in Arizona before, even though I told them I live in WA

As a non-licensed individual (you're not a dealer) you cannot have the gun shipped to you, and when you have it shipped to your local licensed dealer, he will have to transfer it to you just as if it was one from his own stock. And he can't do that if you are legally a resident of another state.

-Sam

This is a really confusing sentence. You make it sound like I cannot have a gun from Ohio shipped to Arizona Cabela's and pick it up as a Washington Resident...which is exactly what I did on my last purchase of a rifle. Are pistol laws different in this way? Again I have little knowledge of handgun laws.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes. Handgun laws are different in exactly that way.

Your dealer would have explained to you when you tried to set the deal up.

Probably the easiest way to sort this out is to ask what address is printed on your driver's license or other form of photo-ID? If it is WA, then you'll have to arrange with a WA FFL to transfer the pistol to you.

-Sam

 

[Old Fuff]

AZAviator:

Out of 12 months of a year, how much time do you spend in Arizona, and how much in Washington?

I am not sure of the details, but I believe under BATF&E regulations you can have a legal residence in one state (and therefore buy guns) but also in another one if you spend enough time there. This came up concerning an individual that had a residence in one state, and a vacation condo (or whatever) in another. He spent his time split between both, and apparently could buy guns in both states while he was residing in each. All of this is from my feeble memory so don't take it as cast in stone, but I'll try to find out more.

 

[dk148]

If you have an residence in AZ and have some sort of government issued documentation (tax bill for example)with your AZ address and your other ID (drivers license, etc) shows your WA address. You can still buy a handgun in AZ.

Look at page 5 on this questions 20a, 20b http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f4473.pdf

 

[NavyLCDR]

Take what you have for ID to show that you live in AZ to an FFL and ask if they will sell you a handgun based on that ID. If they won't, you can't purchase the handgun online, either, and have it sent to AZ. You will have to go through a WA FFL.

Without a Concealed Pistol License in WA, be aware that there is a 3 day waiting period for the handgun transfer, you won't be able to go in, do the paperwork and walk out, you will have to come back after the waiting limit.

You can do a private purchase in AZ if you actually have a residence in AZ from another AZ resident if they will sell to you with what ID you have to prove AZ residency. There are no ID requirements for a private sale, but both parties must actually be residents of the same state. Residency is defined in Federal Regulations as presence in a state with the intent of making a home in that state.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

You can buy long guns in a different state, handgun has to be your own state. Gotta have it shipped to Washington.

 

[AZAviator]

Residency is defined in Federal Regulations as presence in a state with the intent of making a home in that state.

That says alot. I asked the FFL guys at wades eastside yesterday about all this legal stuff and they hailed their "expert handguns guy" from a dimmly lit back room. He who shall be refered to as expert handguns guy, made the final determination that if I were to buy the gun in WA and travel to Arizona with it, thats legal because I have residency in both places, one of which requires me to operate in another state for my job (Flying in Phoenix but living in WA).

This makes me

 

[NavyLCDR]

that if I were to buy the gun in WA and travel to Arizona with it, thats legal because I have residency in both places, one of which requires me to operate in another state for my job

I can buy a handgun in Washington and travel to Arizona with it. I am a Washington resident and it doesn't matter what I am travelling to Arizona for. I don't understand his point.

 

[NavyLCDR]

27 CFR 478.11:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...iv8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.2.1.1&idno=27

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.

Identification document. A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi- governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.

You need both of the above to buy a handgun from an FFL: State of Residence in the same state the FFL is in and Identification sufficient to prove identity and state of residence.

 

[Old Fuff]

Not sure, but I think this should be:

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X, and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the winter[/I] months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

 

[hub]

I think NavyLT hit that one on the head even if it is a little hard to understand.

My own "hassle" I mean personal experience has been.

When I was in the military stationed in Arizona and still had a Indiana drivers licence I couldn't buy a handgun in AZ until I changed my driver's licence to a AZ. I was still considered a IN resident with a AZ licence. Trip to DMV and pay for the changes.

I went to buy another handgun in AZ, still had AZ licence but didn't live in Sierra Vista anymore, I was now stationed in Yuma. Still IN resident. Another trip to DMV and pay for changes.

When I got out of the military and back here in Indiana I still had a AZ drivers licence that didn't expire for a while. I could not buy a handgun in Indiana until I got a IN driver's licence again. I had still been IN resident and paid Indiana tax for the last five years even though I lived in AZ. Another trip to DMV and pay for changes.

Last instance I had was three years ago I had a IN driver's licence and lived in IN. OK no problem right? Wrong, I had just moved into my house about a month before that was just a few miles down the road and since my driver's licence had my old address on it and I honestly or you might say stupidly filled in the new address on the paperwork. Another trip to DMV and pay for changes.

I really, really hate going to the DMV and dealing with those people, I think it would be less stressful and painless go to the dentist and have some teeth jerked out... anyway..To me these extra trips were just plain stupid. I still had a home address in IN the whole five years I lived in AR. What's the difference in me buying a handgun in Indiana, Arizona or Kentucky for that matter.

Right now I live in Indiana, twenty minutes away from Louisville,KY. I work in Louisville, and drive there everyday. I can't legally buy a pistol there without paying shipping and FFL charges to another dealer that is literally just across the state line.

I think since it is a federal firearm licence, and not a state firearm licence, and they do a federal background check it shouldn't matter should it? As long as the FFL follows the buyers state laws what's the problem?

Got to love gun control, it may not keep guns out of the hands of criminal's but it sure keeps me paying the DMV and inflated gun prices just so I can legally buy and own handguns.

 

[NavyLCDR]

When I was in the military stationed in Arizona and still had a Indiana drivers licence I couldn't buy a handgun in AZ until I changed my driver's licence to a AZ. I was still considered a IN resident with a AZ licence. Trip to DMV and pay for the changes.

An active duty service member can, by BATFE guidance in their Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, buy a handgun in the state they are stationed to using their active duty ID card and a copy of their orders to that state. In that case, there is no requirement to show a state ID card. There is NO requirement to obtain a state ID card for the purposes of firearms purchases. Again, it is an FFL who either does not know the guidance, or is not willing to take the options offered to them by the BATFE.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Not sure, but I think this should be:

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X, and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the winter months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

The problem is if a person is a resident of state X and has a driver's license from state X, but is living in state Y at the time and does not have a state issued ID card from state Y, then FFL "Z", won't sell a handgun to a person living in state Y because of the ID card from state X!

Unless the person is active duty, then the FFL is SUPPOSED to be able to sell them a handgun when presented with a copy of the orders and the active duty ID card alone. I've even had a retired military FFL tell me, "If you didn't bring a copy of your orders, don't worry about it, you can use my computer and download your orders here and print them out."

 

[Old Fuff]

The problem is if a person is a resident of state X and has a driver's license from state X, but is living in state Y at the time and does not have a state issued ID card from state Y, then FFL "Z", won't sell a handgun to a person living in state Y because of the ID card from state X!

Probably, because of the way the BATF&E (not to mention NYC Mayor Bloomberg) sometimes behave, dealers have to be cautious, and sometimes overly so.

While AZAviator has to present a combination of proof that he is who he says he is, and resides where he claims, this proof doesn’t have to be a driver’s license, although that is what’s preferred.

I’d suggest that since this is (or potentially is) an ongoing situation; he contact the BATF&E, explain his situation, and ask that they clarify the issue in writing. With that, along with evidence that he does maintain a residence in Arizona should be enough to convince a dealer that he’s O.K. In addition I suspect that he has some kind of photo-identification issued by the airline or company he works for that would work to prove his identity (but not residence).

Where there’s a will there’s a way…

Unless the person is active duty, then the FFL is SUPPOSED to be able to sell them a handgun when presented with a copy of the orders and the active duty ID card alone. I've even had a retired military FFL tell me, "If you didn't bring a copy of your orders, don't worry about it, you can use my computer and download your orders here and print them out."

You are absolutely correct in your outline of the situation regarding members of the military services.