C&R disadvantages/disabilities?

[Arizona_Mike]

Does the logging requirement combined with the original condition requirement actually prevent a licensee from acquiring a potentially C&R eligible firearms for sporterizing or making another disqualifying modification even if that gun was acquired on a 4473 or private intrastate transaction?

What about a previously-owned "prior to license" gun he decides to sporterize (changing it's status from non-C&R to C&R)? Normally he would have to log this out if he sold it but I don't believe you can log out to yourself.

Does the logging requirement require the C&R holder to spend time and potentially money researching serial number ranges and dates (and ATF exceptions) for every single gun he acquires or sells to determine if it needs to be logged? Many guns were available with factory polymer stocks in the last 50 years. What if the C&R status is not clear even after a good faith effort? Would searching the ATF index and updates count as good faith. Do I need to research any modificaitons already done to a gun I own to see if they are factory? What if they are not factory but similar to factory options? When buying or selling guns, it seems one must err on the side of it not being C&R eligible but when logging guns one must err on the side of it being C&R eligible. Can this be correct?

Mike

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Dammed if you do dammed if you don't . . .

Good grief!

Any firearm sold as a C&R weapon once changed out of its original configuration cannot be resold as a C&R weapon. In regard to conversions; certain pistols have been approved for sale with added safety conversions (i.e. Polish and Romanian Tokarev pistols, to which a manual safety was added to meet import requirements). Certain other modifications, such as period sporterisations, are arguably C&R qualified as they represent the gun culture of the period.*An example would be a Lee-Enfield or 98K Mauser military rifle that had been converted into a continental style sporter between WW1 and WW2. These common conversions occurred more than 50 years ago, and represent a sub-type of special interest to collectors.

Besides having both a lawyer and museum curator on retainer what do you do? Buy or sell all close calls without your C&R but log them? OK but that still leaves my question about sporterizing.

Mike

 

[deadin]

All firearms acquired after the issuance of your FFL03 that fall within the age definition or are listed on the BATF C&R list AND meet the minimum requirements as to originality as posted on the BATF website FAQ's, need to be entered in the A&D log.
Firearms that qualify as a C&R that were in your possession prior to getting the license do not need to be entered unless you decide to dispose of them.Then they are logged in as coming from you and logged out to the new owner.
Any C&R in your book that has been removed from C&R status by "sporterizing" etc. should be logged out as "No longer qualified."

These answers may seem overkill, but they will keep you out of possible trouble.

As for researching their age and original configuration... Isn't that one of the things collectors do? (After all the FFL03 is intended to be an aid to Collectors, not as a cheaper way to get firearms for sporterizing and resale.)

 

[Arizona_Mike]

All firearms acquired after the issuance of your FFL03 that fall within the age definition or are listed on the BATF C&R list AND meet the minimum requirements as to originality as posted on the BATF website FAQ's, need to be entered in the A&D log.

Yep

Firearms that qualify as a C&R that were in your possession prior to getting the license do not need to be entered unless you decide to dispose of them.Then they are logged in as coming from you and logged out to the new owner.

Agreed

Any C&R in your book that has been removed from C&R status by "sporterizing" etc. should be logged out as "No longer qualified."

That's what I was asking. Do you know where I could find that straight from the horse's mouth?

As for researching their age and original configuration... Isn't that one of the things collectors do?

Within the legally required 24 hours?
I guess it would depend on the collector and how much time he devotes to the hobby. Even a car collector probably has a daily driver. I'm sure there is a pretty big overlap between collectors and shooters/hunters, etc. The law does not allow him to pick and choose which guns he considers collectable. A C&R might get a CMP Garrard to shoot but he still needs to log it.

(After all the FFL03 is intended to be an aid to Collectors, not as a cheaper way to get firearms for sporterizing and resale.)

Did someone mention resale???

I'm asking these things because I want to follow the law. I'm not sure why you would presume the opposite. I sporterized a bunch of Mausers in the early '90s (kind of like sporterizing a Mosin today) I may sell one or two. I have also bought a lot of sporterized guns at gun shows, etc. Some very nice work (not Bubba). In some cases the style is representative of sporter styles more than 50 years ago but the work probably isn't.

For example, I am considering selling two pre-1968 shotguns with no serial numbers (one is a Westernfield, I forget the other off hand but I think it was a Sears department store brand). If I sell these after Jan 1, 2019 I would definitely log them. What do I do if I sell them in the next 4 years? This is not academic. I actually had these listed for sale a couple times in recent years.

Mike

 

[deadin]

That's what I was asking. Do you know where I could find that straight from the horse's mouth?

I've always found that a phone call to my local BATFE Field Office,
Industry Operations will either get my questions answered or give mea contact to someone who will.

Within the legally required 24 hours?

I can only speak for myself, but I usually do my research in advance and have a pretty good idea of what is and what isn't a C&R. If in doubt, I would go ahead and log it in and then log it back out if it turns out not to be a C&R. (Of course I wear both suspenders and a belt....) The hardest thing I have run across is convincing a FFL01 that what I am wanting to buy is a C&R. Many of them really don't understand a C&R License and won't take the time to check. On several cases I've had to buy on a 4473 and ask for a copy of their license so I can log it into my book. If I'm out of State it would have to be a screaming deal to go thru the hassle..... (I've even had to buy an antique on a 4473 because the dealer was over cautious. I mean, Come On! A S&W Old Model American? They stopped making them in 1872..)

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I have a 4473 on a side ignition muzzle loader from the Clinton days when FFLs were more skittish than whitetail.

Mike

 

[AlexanderA]

Having had a C&R FFL (and, later, a regular FFL) and being what you might call a "dyed in the wool" collector, I find that not having an FFL now is extremely liberating. Since I like to personally inspect everything I buy (mostly at gun shows), the mail-order aspects of the FFL are no advantage to me. There are no cost savings to me, either. And maintaining that "bound book" is a pain.

 

[Jlr2267]

I believe the only affect of sporterizing a C&R purchase is that you cannot then sell as C&R, meaning you could not ship it to another C&R collector directly. Otherwise, you can sell it however your state law permits and log it out.

 

[slumlord44]

If you cannot prove that it is a C&R, if there is any doubt that it is a C&R, treat it as a modern gun. As stated, you can modify it after you get it. Exactly what it takes to make it not a C&R can be a grey area. Logging in a non C&R will likely not get you in trouble. Not logging one in will get you in trouble. Like most laws and rules, they are made to keep lawyers working. Do the best you can to follow the law and don't loose any sleep over it. Checking with the BATF is a good idea but their people that I have talked to a gun shows don't seem to know as much as I do about C&R's.

 

[rromeo]

I've never heard of anybody doing time for incorrectly logging non C&R guns in their bound books.

 

[OldMac]

Had a Makarov with two slides and barrels. One in 9x17 and the other in 9x18. I logged it and noted the details and that we also ran it on a 4473 since i bought a modern revolver from the same dealer. Worst case is that it has been logged unnecessarily.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Not that I plan to, but if I were to sporterize a C&R on my bound book, it seems the consensus is to log it out as "no longer qualified" or something to that effect. If I sell any of the sporters I bought or buit in the '90s, I will assume they are non-C&R. If I sell any of my pre-'68s with no serial numbers I will attempt to find a year range for the model on line but if I cannot conclude it is C&R I will assume it is not.

Mike

 

[deadin]

If I sell any of my pre-'68s with no serial numbers I will attempt to find a year range for the model on line but if I cannot conclude it is C&R I will assume it is not.

3 more years and this problem goes away......