C&R question

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Quoheleth

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Two questions. I got my C&R earlier this year and this is new territory. I didn't see either question in the FAQ of the ATF.

#1. If I buy a C&R-eligible gun at a local dealer, do I need to do anything special at his store? Do I log it in as a C&R gun, even if I were to do a 4473 at his place?

#2. Is the onus of proof of C&R eligibility (50-year date of manufacture) on the seller or buyer? I'm looking at a "C&R eligible" S&W 10-5. That model change happened in 1962. Do I or the seller need to verify the SN before it's transferred to my C&R?

Q
 
1. Why would you fill need to fill out a 4473? Your C&R takes its place.

2. As a C&R dealer it is my responsibility to make sure the gun falls within the law. Look at it this way. If possessions 9/10 of the law guess who is going to get in trouble?
 
I would think that if you aren't using your C&R to take ownership you shouldn't have to log it unless the C&R requires you to log every firearm in your possession. If you are using your C&R I don't think you have to fill out a 4473. You should simply have to provide them a copy of your C&R.

But in all honesty, the best thing for you to do is to call the ATF directly and speak with someone familiar with you situation. This is a public forum and there is no way for you to know the extent of anyone's knowledge. Better safe than sorry.
 
Keep in mind not all dealers will accept a C&R. They are under no obligation to accept it. As I understand it, if you used your C&R license to acquire a C&R firearm then you must log it in.

If you buy a C&R firearm from your neighbor next door, across the state, or from the next state and you have a C&R license, you must log it in even though it is a private sale because you are a C&R licensee.

If you bought a C&R firearm through a dealer but they made you fill out a 4473 and had to pass NICS, but you did not use your C&R license to acquire the firearm . The issue never came up in my case. I would assume if you are a C&R licensee, you are still obligated to log it in only if it is a C&R firearm.
 
Quoheleth Two questions. I got my C&R earlier this year and this is new territory. I didn't see either question in the FAQ of the ATF.

#1. If I buy a C&R-eligible gun at a local dealer, do I need to do anything special at his store? Do I log it in as a C&R gun, even if I were to do a 4473 at his place?
Both of you are responsible.
You log in EVERY C&R eligible firearm you acquire while you are licensed as a collector. It doesn't matter if you bought it in the parking lot at WalMart or from a dealer via a 4473.


#2. Is the onus of proof of C&R eligibility (50-year date of manufacture) on the seller or buyer? I'm looking at a "C&R eligible" S&W 10-5. That model change happened in 1962. Do I or the seller need to verify the SN before it's transferred to my C&R?


If you acquire a firearm that is NOT classified as a curio & relic from a licensed dealer (using your 03FFL) or a nonlicensee ships you a firearm interstate that is NOT c&r...........you both commit a serious violation of Federal law. You can be cellmates:D


BSA1 ....As a C&R dealer it is my responsibility to make sure the gun falls within the law.
If you are dealing in firearms with your C&R you are already in violation of Federal law.


KansasSasquatch I would think that if you aren't using your C&R to take ownership you shouldn't have to log it unless the C&R requires you to log every firearm in your possession...
The regs require a licensed collector to record all c&r aquisitions made during the period he is licensed. C&R firearms acquired prior to the license do not have to be recorded as aquisitions, but MUST be recorded as a disposition if sold or traded.


But in all honesty, the best thing for you to do is to call the ATF directly and speak with someone familiar with you situation. This is a public forum and there is no way for you to know the extent of anyone's knowledge. Better safe than sorry.
The ATF's sends each licensee a copy of the regs.................which clearly states that the OP needs to record all aquisitions of eligible firearms.
 
You mean a C&R gun is not a firearm? Me thinks you tripped over your tongue.

The key word in dogtown's statement is "dealing". The C&R rules specifically state that it is not to be used for acting as a dealer.
 
Both of you are responsible.
You log in EVERY C&R eligible firearm you acquire while you are licensed as a collector. It doesn't matter if you bought it in the parking lot at WalMart or from a dealer via a 4473.


I feel it is the C&R Holders responsibility to make sure the firearm qualifies as a C&R. For example the widow next door has a gun she wants to sell to me. She doesn't know anything about guns only that it is a "old" gun. The term old is very subjective. It might be a revolver that her Father owned when she was a child or maybe a gun that her late husband brought in 1980.

Would the court hold that a 86 year old widow should be responsible for knowing and understanding Federal Law and BATF Regulations?

Or would they be more likely to hold a C&R Holder who has been furnished with a copy of the BATF Rules and Regulations?

Maybe the decision would go to which one of has the most money to lose to the government.


If you are dealing in firearms with your C&R you are already in violation of Federal law.

HUH??? You mean a C&R gun is not a firearm? Me thinks you tripped over your tongue.:rolleyes:
 
BSA1, a C&R FFL is for collectors, and you cannot "be in the business of dealing firearms". So no buying, then selling as a livelihood.

There was a recent case where some guy was buying up C&R eligible guns, and selling them on gunbroker, or something. I can't find an article right now.
 
BSA1
I feel it is the C&R Holders responsibility to make sure the firearm qualifies as a C&R. For example the widow next door has a gun she wants to sell to me. She doesn't know anything about guns only that it is a "old" gun. The term old is very subjective. It might be a revolver that her Father owned when she was a child or maybe a gun that her late husband brought in 1980.

Would the court hold that a 86 year old widow should be responsible for knowing and understanding Federal Law and BATF Regulations?
If she's your next door neighbor she can sell, trade or give you ANY firearm.....doesn't matter if it's a C&R or not.

And yes, she's just as responsible to Federal law as anyone else.



Or would they be more likely to hold a C&R Holder who has been furnished with a copy of the BATF Rules and Regulations?
Uh.........having a copy of the law doesn't affect your responsibility or culpability under the law.
 
I have a C&R license. I do quite a few online auctions and have bought both C&R qualified guns and non-C&R guns. Many of the auction houses run multiple auctions throughout the year. In a couple of cases, they have my C&R license on file (from an earlier purchase), and have shipped me direct an item that should have gone through my FFL. In one case, I had won a C&R eligble gun and one that was not in a single auction - the auction house sent both direct to me. I was not exactly sure how to handle this situation. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Edit for clarification - In one case, I sent an email to the auction house providing them with my Class 1 dealer name, tel, shipping address and had the FFL fax them their license and they still sent it direct to me.
 
BSA1, a C&R FFL is for collectors, and you cannot "be in the business of dealing firearms". So no buying, then selling as a livelihood.

I know that. I addressed that in Post #9. I tripped over the word "dealing" as we are "collectors".

If she's your next door neighbor she can sell, trade or give you ANY firearm.....doesn't matter if it's a C&R or not.

Maybe or maybe not depending on State Law.

Maybe this example helps me to explain myself better;

In my state if I want to have remodeling work done on my home permission from Big Brother is required in the form of permits and $$$. The reason for this farce is to ensure the home is built to a government miniminium standard. In my area it means maybe a government inspector will come out and certify the work was done to code but it is highly unlikely.

Let's say for example I have some electrical work done and the fuse box that is used does not building codes. As the homeowner I am held responsible for correcting the problem. It doesn't matter even if I have to hire another electrician to correct the problem.

It is highly unlikely the government will go after the electrician and make him fix his goof. As a matter of fact there was incident recently where a contractor built several homes without preparing the soil properly. The soil around and under the homes foundations collapsed in just a few months leaving the owners with unliveable homes and 10's of thousands of $,$$$ in repairs. In one instance the home had to be destroyed. There was nothing in State and Local Laws to require the builder to fix his goof.

Of course the home owners could file a civil suit against the builder but it require hiring a lawyer $,$$$+ and having the case drag out for months or years through the courts. In the meantime the homeowner is stuck not only paying on a house he can't live in plus renting another place.

Same situation for a C&R holder. If I am given or buy a firearm I am responsible for complying with not only BATF rules but state and local laws as well regardless as you say whether it is C&R or modern. If I violate the law Big Brother is holding me responsible. Even if they believe my story from where I got the gun(s), (sure, sure you got them from a little old widow lady or I brought gun from out-of-state on a online aution), it is going to be on my dollar $$,$$$ to defend myself in court. Maybe Big Brother will go after the seller although I don't see them making that much of a effort.

And yes, she's just as responsible to Federal law as anyone else....

Throwing little old widows in jail makes for bad press but arresting a dealer with a hoard of assault and illegal guns and ammunition makes for good media pictures and press.

Uh.........having a copy of the law doesn't affect your responsibility or culpability under the law.

Absolutely. Regardless the easiest thing to do would be to contact a local BATF office and get a response in writing attesting to the fact the fireram in question qualifies as a C&R.
 
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I have a C&R license. I do quite a few online auctions and have bought both C&R qualified guns and non-C&R guns. Many of the auction houses run multiple auctions throughout the year. In a couple of cases, they have my C&R license on file (from an earlier purchase), and have shipped me direct an item that should have gone through my FFL. In one case, I had won a C&R eligble gun and one that was not in a single auction - the auction house sent both direct to me. I was not exactly sure how to handle this situation. Any suggestions? Thanks.

This was another question I had. The Smith I was looking at was a 10-5, which puts it around 1962. The auction information stated that it was C&R. But, looking up the number stamped into the butt of the gun put it into the 1970s. I asked the seller to double-check the yoke of the crane for another number to verify the SN but he said that number on the butt was the SN. Had I won the auction and it turned out that the SN was later than 1962, I would have had a problem...but how to resolve it?

FWIW, I lost the auction, so it's moot now. But, for future reference this would be good to know.

Q
 
Two points;

The seller is correct. The serial number is on the butt of the grip frame. The number inside the yoke is a assembly number used by the factory when manufacturing the gun.

If the gun was advertised as C&R then you should not be required to buy. Check the on-line auction forum rules. Otherwise you will need to locate a dealer with a FFL and pay a transfer fee in addition to completing a 4473 (passing the background check should not be a issue since you already have a C&R).
 
Some type 1 dealers won't do s C/R transfer as such, but are more comfortable doing ALL transfers as type 1 sales. You can do business with folks that want it that way as you like. If the type 1 is OK with selling C/R to you as a regular transfer, uit logged just as any other C/R purchase/acquisition. On your end, if it is a C/R it *MUST* go in your book regardless of how you acquired it. And you are the 100% responsible one for determining C/R status and compliance.


As fot the way it turned out (the auction), you could have had a regular type 1 purchase the non-c/r on your behalf and transfer it to you for a fee (usually 25 bucks).
Get OK from them before you proceed, have them put their type 1 and info for shipping w/ the seller, and go from there. It's done this way all the time and takes a couyple phone calls and some emails/faxes.
 
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