C&R Firearm Legality Question

Discussion in 'Legal' started by kb4ns, Aug 9, 2008.

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  1. kb4ns

    kb4ns Member

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    Hi all. I'm new to THR and new to having a C&R FFL. I'm confused on one issue. I have seen some folks selling sporterized 91/30's as C&R eligible. I have read that for a military firearm to be C&R, it has to be in it's original configuration. I know that this applies to C&R guns less than 50 years old (example - Albanian SKS). Do these 91/30's retain C&R status regardless of modification since they are over 50 years old?

    Any C&R experts that can help me clear this up? Thanks!
     
  2. Gator

    Gator Member

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    As I understand it, if they have been modified, and are no longer in original military condition, they cease to be C&R eligible. However, I do see a lot of sporterized milsurps being sold as C&Rs. I think the chances of getting in trouble over one are small, but...
     
  3. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    Checking with Southern Ohio Gun(SOG):
    The Russian Sporter 91/30 ,in very good plus condition,fitted into new,synthetic,black sporter stocks is C&R eligible.7.62x54R caliber.
    SOG #SLG-MN9130SPT selling for $129.95 + S+H.Ask for Trish if you call.1-800-944-4867,8-6 Mon-Fri.
    Hurry,supplies are limited.:D

    http://www.southernohiogun.com
     
  4. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Solo - you seem to be missing the point. Just because SOG has the gun listed as C&R eligible, that doesn't mean that it actually is, which is the OP's question.

    FWIW - I don't have my C&R yet, but I've read and been told that it only applies to guns that have not been altered from their original configuration.
     
  5. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    I'm not missing the point.I've dealt with SOG for years.They're the most ethical Mil-Surp outfit in America. I've the latest brochure which just arrived in front of me.When they say something is C&R eligible it is.

    FWIW I've had my C&R for 30 months and have purchased over 2 dozen Mil-Surps from AIM and SOG.
    So trust me.They're not breaking the law.
    And do you really believe THAT I COULD MISS THAT POINT KNOWING THE WAY I POST?
    Your phrasing is close to being insulting.Its Saturday night.
    Call SOG and the ATF on Monday and get the details.
    And again.I DON'T MISS POINTS.
     
  6. Gator

    Gator Member

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    I don't think simply replacing a stock is enough to disqualify it as a C&R; it would be easy to return it to its original condition. I've never heard of anyone getting prosecuted for this, and its not worth arguing about.
     
  7. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    You are correct,Gator and thank you for cooling me down.
    Can you imagine, probably the leading Mil-Surp outfit in America is sending its monthly brochure out to thousands of not just FFL-03 ,but also FFL-01 dealers.
    And they are going to jeopardize their hard won position by advertising items in huge print that are not authorized by the BATFE?
    Knowing that that very outfit scrutinizes all these ads in every dealers publications every single issue?
    That truly would be sheer madness.
    And SOG puts out 30 pages every month!
    So,I've put on Sinatra,took 2 Advil and after a short respite will go watch Casablanca and Bogie for the 30th time.I've been here 2 months and for only the second time I've really felt let down by another forum member.Perhaps I'm getting too sensitive for this kind of work.
    So kingpin,just disregard the caps,make your calls on Monday and please let us know what you discovered.I can understand your concern,but diplomatically, to me at least ,it didn't show up too well.
     
  8. kb4ns

    kb4ns Member

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    I see your point regarding SOG. It's likely they have more of a grip on this than I do.

    MY interpretation of ATF rules is that if the first of three possible qualifiers for a C&R firearm is that "the firearm was manufactured over 50 years ago" and the ATF considers the receiver to be "the firearm", then it doesn't matter what modifications have been done - it is (and always will be - unless they change the current rules) a C&R firearm.

    But that's just how I interpret it. Trying to understand Federal Law and ATF rules is like trying to understand a woman (no offense ladies). I've been trying for many years, but it'll never happen! :banghead:
     
  9. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    The only 100% iron-clad on questions like this, is to contact ATF and get an opinion on the specific case.

    I wouldn't bother. The age and type of weapon concerned makes it less politcally attractve if you get my meaning. For similar reasons, you don't see main line C/R sellers offering Yugo SKS's in sporter stocks.
     
  10. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    So correct!
    BATFE Phone 1-866-662-2750 in Atlanta 8-5 p.m EDT. Mon-Fri

    SOG Phone 1-800-944-4867 in Lebanon,Ohio 8-6 pm EDT. Mon-Fri

    So,kb4ns tomorrow ,if you still wish to pursue the Russian Sporter,2 free phone calls will get you the correct,non -forum speculated answers!:D
     
  11. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Solo - please don't get the impression I was trying to insult you, because that's not the case. I was simply pointing out that businesses can easily be wrong, no matter what their advertising may say. Being ethical doesn't prevent someone from being misinformed, right?

    No harm meant.:)
     
  12. EOD Guy

    EOD Guy Member

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    Most people seem to jump to the 3 qualifiers for C&R firearm status and don't read the first sentence of the definition. That sentence reads: "Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons."

    The BATF position, as stated in several letters, is that military firearms not in their original configuration are not of special interest to collectors and thus, do not qualify for C&R status. They disqualified such firearms from the definition before you even get to the qualifiers.

    BATF has been consistent in this position for years.

    You and I might think they are of special interest, but the BATF doesn't think that they are and, like it or not, they make the rules.
     
  13. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    kingpin,
    It was late,I was a little edgy and read more into your comment than I should have.You meant no disrespect.
    Thanks for getting back to me.It's in the past,no harm,no foul,no more caps!:D
     
  14. Mojo-jo-jo

    Mojo-jo-jo Member

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    The BATFE has made this clear in ATF Ruling 85-10:


    Emphasis mine. Under the ATF rules, a firearm is no longer "C&R eligible" if it is not in original military configuration.
     
  15. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    Here is the firearm in question from the OP.Scroll down to the end to see the 91/30 Russian Sporter:

    http://www.southernohiogun.com/mn.htm

    What is your opinion?Would that be considered its "original military configuration?"
     
  16. deadin

    deadin Member

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    Who makes the rules? SOG or BATFE?
    If you want the rules explained, go to the source, not what you see on the internet.
     
  17. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    You must not have read post #10.We've already covered that ground.

     
  18. granop

    granop Member

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    I emailed the ATF this very question 2 months ago. After 2 weeks they emailed me back stating that a gun must be in it's orginal unaltered configuration. I emailed them back and asked what if there was just a new stock or a bent bolt or drilled and tapped. After another 2 weeks they told me that a new stock or a few holes would not be a big deal, but a bent bolt would. So unfortunately, (as with all legality questions), it is pretty vague as to what will qualify. In my opinion, this is all pretty foolish considering one could buy the original configured gun and make all the altercations himself to make it a state of the art weapon. All in all, I agree that I don't think it's a huge deal to them anyway. I mean if you buy a gun from SOG that they say is C&R eligible, they're not going to lock you up and throw away the key. Those places are constantly audited by BATF and they probably know the laws better than us.
     
  19. velocette

    velocette Member

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    Gentlemen;
    The problem is that the ATF may interpret the rules as they see fit. They (the ATF) have a notoriously lousy sense of humor. Get an ATF agent on a bad day or after he's had an argument with his wife and you may be in for a long and expensive legal battle with the best outcome being you win and get to pay your lawyer a year of your earnings. Anything less than a win and you still have to pay your lawyer a year of your earnings and the govt. may take a few years of your time and at least all of your firearms. Don't never mess with the ATF or IRS it just ain't worth it.

    Roger
     
  20. nambu1

    nambu1 Member

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    I have a C & R and my understanding is that it goes by the year of manufacturing.
     
  21. deadin

    deadin Member

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    I did read #10. I assumed that some folks didn't understand it as the "discussion" continued on. I just tried couching it in simpler terms.;)
     
  22. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    as I understand it, what happens is the sellers get a ruling from the batf if there is any question about its c&r status.
     
  23. tulsamal

    tulsamal Member

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    I've had my C&R for years and years as well and I think it is frigging hilarious that you think SOG is "the most ethical Mil-Surp outfit in America!"

    I have ordered from them a few times but I consider them a lot more of a "last resort" than the place I check out first.

    Gregg
     
  24. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    Keep chuckling,Gregg.I think you're hilarious!:D
    More quotes,please!Your audience demands it!
     
  25. Solo Flyer

    Solo Flyer member

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    I understand now deadin,and as we've seen from the somewhat bent out of shape tulsamal the "discussion" does continue!:D
    Some folks just want to keep stirring that pot!
    Gregg seems to be having the day that I had last night.
    Advil and perhaps a good brew will get his "mind right".(Cool Hand Luke,1967)
     
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