C&R Legal question

[courtgreene]

I looked at the paperwork that came with my C&R license but I didn't find it to be quite clear. Can I use my C&R to purchase a gun with the intent of giving it to some one as a gift, or when doing that should I use an FFL transfer via a dealer? Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[dogtown tom]

courtgreene I looked at the paperwork that came with my C&R license but I didn't find it to be quite clear. Can I use my C&R to purchase a gun with the intent of giving it to some one as a gift, or when doing that should I use an FFL transfer via a dealer? Thanks in advance for your responses.

Absolutely not.
The license allows you to enhance YOUR collection.......not someone else's.

There is nothing to prevent you from giving one of the guns in your collection to someone as a gift as long as you properly record that disposition in your bound book.

But using your C&R to purposely acquire firearms that you have no intentention of keeping in your collection? Jail time.

 

[deadin]

I would say you should use a dealer to transfer it as the stated intent of the C&R is to improve or enhance your collection, not to buy gifts for others.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I don't understand what the problem is.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

It says right on pages 10-11:

Licensed Collectors
Licensed collectors may buy curio or relic firearms from any source and dispose of curio or relic firearms to another licensee anywhere. As a licensed collector, you may dispose of and receive curio or relic firearms to non-licensed residents of your State.
You must maintain A&D records. Your collector’s license entitles you to conduct transactions in curios and relics only. A licensed collector has the same status as a non-licensee in any transaction involving firearms other than curios and relics. ATF Form 4473 is not required for curio and relic transactions.

A curio or relic license does not entitle the holder to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, including dealing in curio or relic firearms.

He acquires the firearm, then disposes of the firearm to a non-licensee who is a same state resident, recording both transactions in the bound book. He is not dealing in C&R firearms because giving a gift can hardly be considered making repetitive sales with the intent of providing livelihood and profit.

18 USC 921 defines collector as:
'(13) The term “collector” means any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics, as the Attorney General shall by regulation define, and the term “licensed collector” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.'

So the OP acquires a C&R firearm and disposes of that firearm - how is that not meeting the definition of 18 USC 921 so long as he does not do so with the purpose of obtaining livelihood from profit?

 

[ErikO]

If you can find a FFL in your area that will do it for $25 or less, it makes you far safer than just putting it in your bound book and hoping that you don't stick up tallest in the eyes of the ATF. Cheap insurance against going to jail, for sure. This way you can buy gifts for folks and NOT seem like a bad business. Just because you give away a gun does not make it look like youre any less of a business if you do this frequently. The whole idea behind the bound book is to show that you retain most of your 'inventory' and also to proove that you are not selling off guns without a 'full' FFL

 

[courtgreene]

I figured as much, but as navylcdr points out, when it comes to gifts it's a little less than clear. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[deadin]

The use of the word "intent" in the OP seems counter to the definition of what a C&R license is for. (A C&R gun logged in today and logged out tomorrow just might raise some suspicions.)

 

[TCOV]

Whether or not you transfer the firearm with a ffl or as a private party makes no difference as far as your C&R license is concerned. You would be legal either way as long as state law allows. Just keep proper records as required. Your "intent" is your private business and should be kept to yourself. C&R holders sell their "collections" by the table full at gunshows with no paperwork from the buyer and no problems. I buy from a local C&R holder and he has no restrictions on disposition other than his paperwork. Lots of people who don't have a C&R will give you advise about them but those that I know that have a C&R have no problems disposing of a firearm from their collection.
If you worry about appearances keep it a couple weeks or so before you dispose of it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you can find a FFL in your area that will do it for $25 or less, it makes you far safer than just putting it in your bound book and hoping that you don't stick up tallest in the eyes of the ATF. Cheap insurance against going to jail, for sure. This way you can buy gifts for folks and NOT seem like a bad business. Just because you give away a gun does not make it look like youre any less of a business if you do this frequently. The whole idea behind the bound book is to show that you retain most of your 'inventory' and also to proove that you are not selling off guns without a 'full' FFL

What difference is it going to make transferring the gun to an FFL, or a same-state resident? The firearm is still legally transferred either way. A "collector" can't illegally be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms through another FFL? All that would do is cut out the $25 transfer fee out of the profits.

Let's say I use a C&R license to obtain a group of 10 rifles at a discount for $800 for the bunch. I sell the rifles for $110 each to same-state residents and deal with them directly. Or, I sell the rifles for $110 each and the buyers pay the transfer fees to go through an 01 FFL. Or, I sell the rifles for $125 each and pay the transfer fee myself for the guns to go through an 01 FFL. Or, I straight-up sell the guns for $110 each to an 01 FFL. What's the difference between the four scenarios? None. All four cases are equally illegal actions. Assuming the recipient is a same-state resident, legal to possess the firearm, an intermediary 01 FFL isn't going to change the scenario at all.

 

[mp510]

If you can find a FFL in your area that will do it for $25 or less, it makes you far safer than just putting it in your bound book and hoping that you don't stick up tallest in the eyes of the ATF. Cheap insurance against going to jail, for sure. This way you can buy gifts for folks and NOT seem like a bad business. Just because you give away a gun does not make it look like youre any less of a business if you do this frequently. The whole idea behind the bound book is to show that you retain most of your 'inventory' and also to proove that you are not selling off guns without a 'full' FFL

Except that if the OP is the one paying for the firearm, HE is the the one who is supposed to fill the 4473, since HE IS THE ACTUAL PURCHASER of the firearm. A C&R holder is required to log the firearm whether he buys it over the counter, from a private pary accross town, or gets it from the other side of the country in the mail.

 

[Jim K]

If a C&R license holder buys ten guns at a time and immediately sells them all at a profit, that is not collecting, that is dealing, by any reasonable definition. The intent is clearly to purchase for the purpose of resale at a profit, not to add to a personal collection.

Jim

 

[NavyLCDR]

If a C&R license holder buys ten guns at a time and immediately sells them all at a profit, that is not collecting, that is dealing, by any reasonable definition.

Exactly. Which is why I am questioning the advice to transfer the gun through a dealer....

I would say you should use a dealer to transfer it as the stated intent of the C&R is to improve or enhance your collection, not to buy gifts for others.

The use of the word "intent" in the OP seems counter to the definition of what a C&R license is for. (A C&R gun logged in today and logged out tomorrow just might raise some suspicions.)

What difference does it make to whom the firearm is logged in today and then logged out tomorrow to? As long as the private party is a same-state resident and not prohibited from receiving firearms, there is no difference in the transaction on the part of the C&R holder transfering the firearm to another FFL or to a same-state resident.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Ah, but LOOK under the may dispose of firearms part

I do believe that the INTENT of the disposal is to ENHANCE your collection, as in removing duplicates and pieces you no longer wish to collect.

NOT dealing, NOT gifting, that said, if you dispose of one to a friend or family member to enhance your collection, I don't see the problem with that, BUT, buying one JUST TO TRANSFER to someone else, IS a violation of it.

 

[N003k]

Just throwing this out...would it be considered 'to enhance ones collection' if you order, say, 10 mosins at 80$, pick your favorite, sell the other 9 at 110$ a piece, and then use the 990$ to buy something else?

What if you just buy 10 mosins at 80, sell them all at 110, just so you can make enough money to then buy some OTHER C&R gun you want? It would still be with the intent of enhancing your collection, right?

 

[deadin]

Let us know how that turns out in court.......

 

[Shadow 7D]

nook
actually, yes, just like the guys who buy 4 crates, picks those with collector value and disposes of the rest, but also realize the ATF HAS sent cease and desist letters to guys who have sold ONE gun

there is NO consistency to them at all.

 

[N003k]

Silly me, good point Shadow...I forgot we're talking about the ATF for some reason...now I just feel silly asking the questions at all.

 

[clutch]

Those are are saying use an FFL are thinking that buying something for immediate transfer is a no no. I tend to agree with them and I have a crffl. I've also bought new guns from a FFL and transferred them as a gift to a nephew within a day or so.

In the first case it wasn't for your collection, thus you should not do it.

In the second case, I was the purchaser, it wasn't a straw buy because it was a straight gift and it wasn't a curio.

Seem simple to me.

Now if I decide to gift a family member something that has been in my collection for a couple years or so, that is a no brainer. Of course that is complicated by the fact that I let my license expire and applied for a new one which means those arms purchased previous to my current license don't have to be run across my bound book. If your license was continuous then you would have to log the gift as a gun going out.

Clutch

 

[deadin]

Clutch,

the fact that I let my license expire and applied for a new one which means those arms purchased previous to my current license don't have to be run across my bound book.

Partially right.... (We've been down this road before.)
If you read 478.125(f) it says that all receipt AND dispositions of firearms curios or relics shall be entered into a bound book.
So if you dispose of a C&R firearm while you have an in force license, it needs to go in the book. You do not have to reenter previously owned C&R's unless you dispose of them.

 

[gibson_es]

I thinkvthis is like driving 5 over speed limit. Technicslly, yes its illegal, but most police officers wont ticket you for it, though some will, its a chance you take. Same here. Technically it might be illegal, imm not to say, but if you log it in, and a couple days later log it out, one time, no money made (not even what you spent) then i woukd think odds are in your favor. But theres still a chance. Not to mention thst your book would first have to be checked correct?

"And whats this here? I see you logged out this firearms just two days after logging it in"

"I purchesed that firearm and when it arived it was not what i expected, i gifted it a couple days later as i didnt need it in my collection". Seems legit to me.

But its YOUR gamble. Therefore YOUR decision. The above is just my view.

Maderstion is key however, dont make it a habit.