CA attempt to ban lead ammunition?

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Preacherman

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From Gun Owners of California (http://www.gunownersca.com/news/05/alertleadammoban.htm):


Gun Owners of California

7996 California Street Ste. F

Fair Oaks, CA 95628 916

967-4970 Fax 916 967-4974

www.gunownersca.com



ALERT! to All Members: (Alert sent to all members Wednesday Jan. 26, 2005)



The Fish and Game Commission meets on Thursday, February 3 in San Diego.

On the agenda is scheduled the Center for Biological Diversity's petition calling for a statewide ban on lead ammunition!

The agenda # is 17, so it is scheduled late in the day and could be carried over until Friday the 4th.



A statewide ban on lead ammunition will impact negatively these listed below:

Law Enforcement - shooting range issues

Upland bird hunters - lead shot Skeet and clays shooters - shooting range issues

Single Action/Cowboy Action fans-shooting range issues

Big game hunters -

Varmint hunters

Varmint control personnel/Ranchers/Farmers

Muzzle-loader/black powder hunters



Please attend this hearing as opposition to the proposed ban.

If you can't attend then write or email. They need to hear from you!



Letters/Comments can be sent to:

Robert Treanor,

Executive Director California Fish & Game Commission

1416 Ninth Street Sacramento, CA 94244

916 653-4899 Fax 916 653-5040

email: [email protected]

or [email protected]



Meeting Location and Information!



Hubbs Sea World Research Institute

Shedd Auditorium

2595 Ingraham Street

San Diego, CA 92109

619 226-3870



Posted 1/27/2005 More information to come.
 
In plain English, just another bite out of that old apple.

Unless there is a major change in state government in California, state agencies and the legislature, gun ownership and shooting, for the law abiding, will likely become a historical reference.
 
Sheesh...

One of these days CA is gonna go too far on this "banning".

Some real threat is gonna occur and they are gonna be royally screwed. NO .50's, no nuttin".

Gary will take out the threat at Sharpshooter distance with his BP. CA is gonna play hell trying to to do a Ballistic Fingerprint on that dealie. CA won't know whom to thank. ;)
 
I don't even live there and don't "have a dog in that fight" but I saw this one coming a mile down the road. :cuss: :mad:
 
Typically, this meeting is not even being held in "neutral territory." This was also the tactic used for all the ocean fishing bans and for marine reserve enactment here in CA. The State always held their meetings on the home turf of the people who wanted to restrict / ban.

They also like to hold these meeting in the middle of a work day, instead of in the evenings. Having been to several of them on the fishing issues, I can tell you what you mostly end up seeing in the audience are environmental NGO reps who are paid to show up, and college students. People who work for a living generally can't get time off to go to them.
 
you have had to use steel shot in lots o places for a long time.

can lead not be replaced with something of equal strength / functionality?

i am sorry but if this is an "I can't afford to stop using lead"
pathetic cry, GET A BETTER JOB.

if you really want to Bash your head against a wall, try to think in CA, fighting this will help gun owners it wont.

this is NOT a gun issue, it is an Environment issue.

between living here , NY, and seeing upstate NY, NJ , etc.
knowing how toxic lead actually is

there has to be something better to use.

i also have to pay (i am a private hauler) $15 minimum, up to $30 to dump a tv set for same reason, the lead has to be removed.

PLEASE guys , maybe you think where youre at it will never matter, maybe the environment is just fine, but i am already drinking Tritium and MTBE.
enough is enough already.

the lead is bad. use this oppurtunity to show anti gunners that gunners actually care about the environment.

now what the heck can i fill my mag with instead?????
 
Thorn,

Its not about the lead. You watch-police and state and federal agencies will be exempt.

What other materials? Steel? Tungsten? Can't have 'em in non-shot form, because bullets become "Armor-piercing"-those are illegal here in the PRK.

Also, if I recall correctly, metallic lead isn't the problem-lead compounds are.

It's gun control in a different guise. :barf:
 
Thorn:

The point isn't that we don't want to be "green" or that we're too cheap to buy the alternatives, the fact is that lead is the material out of which one makes bullets. The legislators in Kali are going to pass this because the next best thing to banning firearms is banning the things that they hurl out their business end. You'll note that the bullets the military is procuring are made of Tungsten (or tungsten compounds), one of the materials that, when used in bullets, makes said bullet "armor piercing" and thus, illegal (at least in pistols. I don't know if CA has a ban on AP rifle ammunition).

I bet everyone here would use "Green" rounds if they were just as effective and inexpensive as lead rounds, but our hackles aren't up because of our wallets, or because we hate mother earth and clean water, we're up-in-fettered-arms because this idea is tantamount to a gun ban.

~Slam_Fire
Apologies for the mildly incoherent, rambling post.
 
the lead is bad. use this oppurtunity to show anti gunners that gunners actually care about the environment.
Click to expand...

Show me some studies on the effect lead shot has on the environment that have results outside of statistical noise. I've never seen one and am curious how they quantify their results.

This is no different than banning arsenic in pressure treated wood. Children playing on playgrounds that used pressure treated wood can be hurt by the arsenic! Can arsenic leach out and cause some damage, sure it can, but how many kids do you know that lay on pressure treated wood for the thousands and thousands of hours required to get a "dose"?

How many kids do you see inhaling enough sawdust to cause problems? Do I take saftey precautions when I cut pressure treated wood? Of course, but do I go all out and install an air filtration system, buy a rubber suit, and decontaminate the entire garage? Of course not, my exposure isn't enough to necessitate thaose things. A simple dust mask is good enough to protect me. If I work with it everyday, well, then that changes things, doesn't it?

The CPU on your computer has arsenic in it, by itself it isn't an issue. However, pile up a couple billion and you have a lot of arsenic. We need to be reasonable and address the costs involved before taking the "wacko save the environment at any cost even if there isn't enough evidence" stance. There is a huge difference between making rules for the disposal of lead at a shooting range (high concentration per area) and using lead shot at a lake (incredibly small concentration per area)
 
I disremember if this has already been discussed here, or if I ran across it somewhere else...

Anyhow, the claim is that hunters wound deer; the deer get away and die elsewhere; condors scavenge the dead deer and ingest the lead and then die of lead poisoning.

Total BS, of course, but that's the excuse.

Art
 
the other way lead gets at people is places like back in LI i believe shot must be steel, because people shoot at ducks over the water, shot ends up in water.
lead was being found in the blood of ducks and fish supposedly.
you can say all this is total BS all you want, i find it hard to believe throwing thousands of lead pellets into lakes and bays is safe.

how are the livers in your deer kills guys???? especially if anyone got one from northeast canada? are they all healthy ?

OK= I hear you guys , i was noticing the tungsten may be AP .
and i Hear you , this is in great part about taking away arms.

well i still do not like the lead. i love how people are so quick to say "there is no danger"

for 50 years no one thought cigarettes were bad at all.

anyway, yeah , it's frustrating.
I guess as an environmentalist, i have the hope something usuable and safer than lead could be developed rapidly enough to use, so we COUld use this to our advantage.

REally= the army is at least in part switching away from lead becasue of the dangers..

but if there is no CA legal alternative to lead bullets, and this is put on the ballot, i will vote against it.
(ugh? what CAn i do about this anyway?, i dont get to vote on it?)

SEE= this is why i am here. i am in a very weird position being a CA wacko who likes guns but fears conservatives. heheh
 
BenW wrote:

Typically, this meeting is not even being held in "neutral territory." This was also the tactic used for all the ocean fishing bans and for marine reserve enactment here in CA. The State always held their meetings on the home turf of the people who wanted to restrict / ban.

They also like to hold these meeting in the middle of a work day, instead of in the evenings. Having been to several of them on the fishing issues, I can tell you what you mostly end up seeing in the audience are environmental NGO reps who are paid to show up, and college students. People who work for a living generally can't get time off to go to them.

*******

As I said in an earlier post, very significant changes are needed in California government and state legislature. Absent these changes, and I make no claim to be all knowing regarding whether or not they can or will be made, things related to firearms and shooting will go from bad to worse to "forgedaboudit".
 
And we need more like ya Thorn! If ya gotta be an environmentalist - carry a gun. :)
(No I"m not an evironmentalist - I'm a conservationist, big difference.)

But in this case the facts are being manipulated for other politics sake - lead isn't such a huge problem from firearms, they're just using headlines, popularist sentiment, and misleading factoids to get a different effort accomplished. The EPA has plenty of regulations for ranges to keep things in check and controlled and there are even ways to recycle (mine the backstop) the lead for reuse and clean up, but no one's looking at that - this is just another way to keep people from being able to keep and bear thier arms!

Lead isn't dangerous - it's mined from the earth for crying out loud. It is the white powdery film that forms on the surface of lead objects that can cause issues - the oxidation of the solid lead. That oxidation can get into the water table and such, but in amounts sufficient to cause damage - you'd be talking about tons of lead oxidizing unnaturally rapidly. But they talk about lead itself as the problem and people automatically think they're right and that since it comes from guns it must be bad! Sensationalizm has been used for a long time to manipulate issues like this. These people are using your environmentalist sense of values to work thier will on a whole different issue. Been done before, and it's only a matter of time before California does it again... :rolleyes: :barf:
 
thorn, the issue isn't the toxicity of lead. Deer hunting, remember? The occasional bullet in a lost deer? It's not like thousands and thousands of pellets of #6 lead shot!

The gripe supposes that out of all the meat in a deer, the condor gulps down the bullet. This first presupposes that the bullet didn't exit the body of the deer. Then, it presupposes that a condor bites off a chunk of meat as a human does a bite of hamburger: No, all vultures rip off small strips of meat, and it's not likely that a bullet would stay attached to a relatively small strip. I really doubt that the protestors have ever seen a vulture at dinnertime...

Art
 
As usual, gun owners in CA have to go on the defensive. You can't win a war or a game by always being on the defensive. The antis are winning... :what:
 
Too bad, another nail in the coffin. California used to be a great state, rewind the clock 25 years and it really was special. Fas forward to today and I have no idea what type of environment the liberals and state gov't are trying to create.

Jello Biafra and the Dead Kennedys were really onto something when they wrote "California Uber Alles". About the loss of freedom in a liberal utopia.
 
the lead is bad. use this oppurtunity to show anti gunners that gunners actually care about the environment.
Click to expand...
Umm, the only lead poisoning from bullets that I know of comes with a nice doce of high velocity. The idea that lead bullets are some sort of serious enviormental issue is just nonsense, there are much bigger things to tackle if one is serious about enviormental protection. It is designed as an attack on gun owners cloaked in a feel-good-policy. I can only assume that the interest of the anti-gunners is to make guns and shooting soo taboo that it all but disappears from our society. They intend on doing this by making shooting soo expensive and exclusive that it would be entirely unpractical for the average person to concieve of.
you have had to use steel shot in lots o places for a long time.
Click to expand...
True, but that is because those places recieve massive exposure over a long time. Recent studies seem to indicate that even with long term exposure to lead projectiles, the polluted land tends to be rather self-contained rather than seeping into the food and water system.
 
well i still do not like the lead. i love how people are so quick to say "there is no danger"

for 50 years no one thought cigarettes were bad at all.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry man, that is ridiculous. My grandfather said when he was young they called cigarettes "coffin nails". People have known for years that smoking is bad for your health and there is a mountain of scientific data that can be used to back up claims that smoking can cause an early death. However, where is the credible scientific data linking duck hunting or deer hunting to lead poisoning in wildlife?

The reason I am suspicious is because time and time again studies presented for making laws have been proven patently false. For example, the study that linked DDT with weaking of egg shells that was later proven to be false. I'm all for the environment but you have to look at it as a cost v. benefit situation just like everything else in life. Nothing in this world is priceless, just ask the insurance companies. The "If it save just one life, baby seal, etc..." mantra is not compatible with common sense, logic, and good science.
 
There is plenty of evidence in wetlands duck hunting

There is plenty of evidence in wetlands duck hunting. The observations are there, and mechanisms are well understood. Diving ducks do pickup lead. The lead is taken up by the ducks - lead pellets in crops/gizzards do get passed on.

Notice that this applies only to diving ducks not to deer. The mechanism includes a lot of small pellets in the feeding environment - bottom feeding ducks. The mechanism is not related to lead as shot from the gun but to lead as spend pellets in a particular place in the environment - part of the ecosystem not part of the background noise.

There is for example little hazard found associated with battle fields of the 1861-1865 war in this country where lead has littered the ground for more than 140 years until picked up by coin shooters with their metal detectors.
 
Lead pollution in the environment is an extremely minor problem / issue, compared to the real problem which is gasoline, and petroeum based compounds. They cause cancer kill wildlife, plants and aminals, migrate rapidly through air, soil and water. Test the milk from a mothers breast and you will find benzene, toluene, and MTBE (added to gasoline to reduce smog and a carcinogen). Lead is not volitile or water soluble in its elemental form, and it does not migrate through the water table like gasoline. Lead is not 1/100,000,000,000,000 of the problem for the environment that gasoline is.

So please you environmentalists give up your gasoline, and then I will consider giving up my lead.

But we all know the real agenda here is not the tremendous evironmental damage being done by lead ammo, its a desire to ban guns anyway you can.

So if this goes through, you will all just have to steal the wheel weights off the environmentalist's BMW SUV and cast your own (which will be illegal).
 
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