Ca Fish & Game lead bullet ban hearing next month.

[bg]

I know I'm not the only person here in Ca who uses lead
bullets. I fire older single actions and banning lead bullets
is NOT an option. >
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/lo...al.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=5000651

It could ban the ammunition statewide, ban it in specific deer-hunting areas or offer hunters incentives to voluntarily use non-lead ammunition.

Here is the U.S Fish & Game's office info. Please call or
e-mail them and tell em NO! on banning lead bullets.
http://www.fws.gov/offices/directory/OfficeDetail.cfm?OrgCode=81331

Thanks for lookin', bg

 

[LAR-15]

What about muzzle loaders designed for lead shot or lead round balls?

 

[Standing Wolf]

What about muzzle loaders designed for lead shot or lead round balls?

In plain English, the object of the game is to ban ammunition—period. It's not hard to find self-styled "scientists" who'll testify to anything, so long as it makes it more difficult and/or expensive and/or, ultimately, impossible for commoners to keep and bear arms.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Once again CA is overeacting. So a few condors die...big deal. If anything why dont they just provide a waste dump near hunting areas in which unused parts of the carcass can be properly disposed of by the state? Oh wait that would make to much sense...lets just ban everything instead.

 

[razorburn]

Ban lead bullets statewide? If I were an unscrupulous californian, I might make a quip about how it's time to start shooting condors.

 

[bg]

One thing I think many might not realize is, if this goes
to a state wide ban it will affect one of the largest segments
of responsible shooting and that's Cowboy Action Shooting
like End of Trail, etc..One last thing as well. Should it be
made as a state wide ban here, what's to stop other groups
in other states charging that some critter in their neck
of the woods may be "suffering" from the results of lead
bullets ? Remember this isn't just a Ca dept, this is the
U.S Fish & Game Dept that's considering this ban.

 

[boilingleadbath]

It's always good to be overly cautious, but the headline reads "State wildlife regulators will consider banning or limiting lead bullets for big-game hunting to protect endangered California condors."

Do you have the acctual text released by the commision?

As it is, it doesn't sound much worse than, say, PA's banning of FMJ bullets for big game.

 

[Libertylover]

I have no doubts whatsoever that eventually, the anti-gunners will go after the ammo using the environmental angle. Lead is harmful in water, it's been proven. All that lead being slung into the ground can't be a good thing.

The ban on steel core ammo as being "armor piercing" is already in place for pistol calibers, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see them try to get the 62 grain steel core 5.56mm banned as AP as well. It's to save cops, doncha know!

And lead is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAD! However, it's also pretty cheap, and dense, and it fragments really well at high velocity, and mushrooms at lower velocity, making it pretty damn good for making bullets out of. So how do we fix the problem of lead contamination (and if I remember correctly, EPA has already shut down some ranges for this very issue)?

I would propose unbanning steel core ammo, and any ammo with steel in it as well. The epa doesn't seem to mind people hunting water fowl with steel.

I think voluntary compliance with using steel for range/practice would be high, considering the price of copper for jackets is going up. I've seen some threads from some guy on I believe it was AR15.com saying that he could bring Russian manufactured non-hardened steel core ammo to market for something like $80-90 a case, and the only hassle was the ATF ban on steelcore ammo imports.

This is just one more reason why we must hammer away at the moral arguments FOR the RKBA, as being a necessary check on government. Being such, why SHOULDN'T the law abiding citizens be able to own something that can punch through?

Like I said, voluntary compiance would be pretty high in using steel/steel core ammo for practice, which I would imagine makes up a MUCH larger percentage of what's being shot out there as compared to rounds fired hunting. And I'm sure someone has already come up with a more environmentally benign hunting type round. I bet voluntary compliance would be pretty high with using something like that if it were reasonably priced.

 

[bg]

Do you have the acctual text released by the commision?

Not yet, but will post as soon as I see it come out.

 

[AZ Jeff]

Lead is harmful in water, it's been proven.

Actually, quite the opposite. It's been shown that metallic lead is virtually insoluble in water, and hence poses little or no problem to poisoning water sources.

 

[nobody_special]

What about zinc? Could that be used for bullet cores? It's only slightly less dense than stainless (about 2/3 the density of lead), it's soft, and I believe it's cheap, isn't it?

 

[#shooter]

I don’t know if lead shot in the water is hazardous or not (Libertylover/AzJeff) but when the general public see “lead” and “water” they immediately want them separated as much as possible. Can you blame them? Anything that uses lead has a red warning label stating “lead is hazardous to your health, wash your hands before you eat” or something like that. This is why waterfowlers and anglers moved to using steel shot (it gives the antis one less thing to complain about). It would be smart for US manufactures to come up with a safe lead-like replacement used for ammo in CAS and ML.

 

[auschip]

This is why waterfowlers and anglers moved to using steel shot (it gives the antis one less thing to complain about).

It had nothing to do with the really high fines they forced you to pay for using lead shot? Lead ore is found in nature. It isn't like lead is hard to find.

 

[ScottsGT]

Quote:
Lead is harmful in water, it's been proven.

Actually, quite the opposite. It's been shown that metallic lead is virtually insoluble in water, and hence poses little or no problem to poisoning water sources.

I'd love to see this source. Now I'm not trying to start a "urinating contest" here, but one of the past hobbies I was into was flying R/C aircraft. OK, your probably asking about now " What in tarnation does this have to do with lead or shootin' lead?" Well, I'm getting to that point. Our flying field was sponsored by Fort Jackson here in Columbia, and we were given an old machine gun range to fix up and build a runway on. We spent MANY hours making a 200' X 900' "Golf Green" surface, and wanted to dig a well for irrigation. Nope! Cannot do it. We were told that EVERY well ever dug on post had to be capped due to VERY high lead content from all the years (about 100) of shooting by the military. So my take on it is, yes, it will cause long term effects to the water table. Did I actually see the test results? No. Just going by what the Post told us. But they had no reason to lie to us or play enviromentalist with us.

 

[dfaugh]

Actually, quite the opposite. It's been shown that metallic lead is virtually insoluble in water, and hence poses little or no problem to poisoning water sources.

This true---up to a point. PURE Lead is vitually insoluble in "plain" (distilled, pure) water. However, lead salts or lead compunds can be highly soluble---and if the water is acidic or caustic (pH significantly higher or lower than 7.0. which is neutral. This is based on some radioisotope studies I did when I was in college.

Beacause of the low pH (stomach acid), SOME lead will be absorbed, but swallowing a big chunk o' lead, whould probably NOT increase blood level much. But it does accumulate,

But, in short, I find it a REAL stretch to say the the condors actually ingest and assimilate a signicant amount of lead,formcarcasses left by hunters.

 

[kludge]

Sorry if this is OT, but I'm just posting to inform.

I am an Electrical Engineer. All of our new electronic devices must be lead free. All of the components, the circuit boards, the solder the connectors, the plastics, etc., etc. etc.

So unless the people don't want to use electronics anymore we have to find a new solder right? (63% tin 37% lead)

So what do we change to? Antimony.

What would you rather have in your ground water lead or antimony?

Sometimes laws really don't make any sense.

"Antimony and many of its compounds are toxic. Clinically, antimony poisoning is very similar to arsenic poisoning. In small doses, antimony causes headache, dizziness, and depression. Larger doses cause violent and frequent vomiting, and will lead to death in a few days.

See also arsenic poisoning." from Wikipedia

 

[jford1]

Solid lead is almost completely insoluble in water or in animals. Lead paint is dangerous because it is already dissolved in a solution (wet) or mixture (dry) that is digestible. If a person’s shot and the bullet is not at risk of causing further tissue or organ damage many doctors just leave it there. If fish swallow lead weights or small game is shot with lead shot they are still safe to eat. Ingested lead in solid form will not get absorbed into the body in any significant quantities. Around here in Missouri there’s lead in the ground everywhere. Hiking around you can find galena (lead sulfide crystals) right on the surface. People have used well water for hundreds of years and there has never been any lead poisoning. Shooting a berm of earth full of lead is just recycling. Inhaling lead dust or ingesting a lead solution or powder is very toxic however. Wash your hands after handling lead because the dust from manufacturing or lead oxide on the surface can be digested. Shooting indoors with bad ventilation can be harmful due to the lead dust from primers. Lead poisoning is far more likely to cause dementia than death. I’d love to see the quack scientific research about Condors eating bullets and getting lead poisoning. How many birds actually eat a bullet and how many of those get autopsied (a nasty thought on a vulture)? If they find an ingested bullet by chance did they actually test to see if that was the cause of death? It sounds like they either found one such bird or they’ve completely made it up. Whether this proposed ban is environmentally or gun rights based it sure wont take much data to get adopted in California.

 

[AZ Jeff]

There is an INCREDIBLE amount is misinformation and disinformation on lead residues from shooting. Here are some facts:
1. the Camp Perry rifle range (where the National Matches are held every year) uses Lake Erie as it's "bullet trap" (more correctly called an impact zone). Lord knows how much lead is on the bottom of the Lake due to that range's use for the past 100+ years, but no one in the .gov has called to shut down Perry.

2. metallic lead is basically insoluble. When we talk about projectiles from firearms, virtually the entire content of what's in the ground and impact zone is metallic lead, NOT lead salts, or lead sulphates, or any of the other lead compounds that ARE soluble in water. Even in high or low pH soils, metallic lead still leaches VERY little into the soil and associated water table. If it DID leach extensively, every outdoor shooting range in the US would already be shut down.

3. the reason that waterfowl hunting requires the use of non-lead shot is NOT because the lead shot falling into the water sources, per se. It's because the waterfowl themselves EAT the lead shot, thinking it's small stones. (Remember, all birds have a gizzard since they have no teeth to grind their food. The gizzard works by using small bits of rock to grind up the birds food sources so the stomach can digest it. All birds regularly pick up and swallow stones to replace those the gizzard grinds up as part of it's normal action. Unfortunately, water fowl don't see any difference between lead shot pellets and small stones, and swallow the shot. Once the shot is in the gizzard, it's ground up, and then attacked by the stomach acids, and winds up being absorbed by the waterfowl through the digestive process, resulting in lead poisoning.)

4. The City of Chicago shut down their trap range in Lincoln Park about 20 years ago. That range had used Lake Michigan as the impact zone for all the clay pigeons and lead shot used by the trap shooters for 40+ years. When they did close the range, some ignorant pseudo-environmentalists raised concerns about the lead shot, it's presence in the lake, and how the Lincoln Park Gun Club should be responsible for "environmental remediation". The EPA got involved and squashed that thinking pretty quick by explaining that metallic lead sitting on the bottom of Lake Michigan poses virtually NO environmental hazard.

 

[jford1]

Thanks AZ Jeff!

I forgot to explain #3. I should mention that vultures do not use stones but do have so very strong stomach acid so some lead could be absorbed. Maybe the answer is to use 50 BMG rifles in California so there's no chance of the bullet remaining in the animal or wounded animals running off for that matter.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

BTW, it's STATE Fish and Game, not U.S.

This has been an annual topic going back at least five years.

 

[xd45gaper]

arent 50.BMG's illegale in California?

 

[K-Romulus]

one question

If the metallic lead is supposed to be insoluble, why are people get lead poisoning from drinking water that passes through lead pipes?

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/lead/pubs/leadrev.pdf

(PDF p6)Lead in household pipes. Lead used in fixtures, pipes, or pipe
soldering can leach into water that flows through the pipes. In 1986,
and again in 1988, Congress changed the Safe Drinking Water Act
to restrict the use of lead in pipes, solder, and other components
used in public water systems and residential and nonresidential
plumbing. Unfortunately, lead may still be found in pipes today.

and

(PDF p7) Other Sources of Lead Hazards
Although less common, a number of other lead hazards can be found in homes:
> Older plumbing fixtures, such as faucets, lead pipes, and pipes
connected with lead solder, can contaminate drinking water.
Older water well pumps made with brass or bronze parts that
contain lead can also contaminate drinking water. The amount of
lead in your water depends on the types and amounts of minerals in
the water, how long the water stays in the pipes, the amount of
wear in the pipes, the water's acidity, and its temperature. Lead can
leach into water at any temperature, but the amount of lead can be
much greater when the water is hot or warm, so don't drink or cook
with water from the hot faucet. Carbon, sand, and cartridge filters
do not remove lead from water, although some filters are certified
for lead removal. Boiling your water will not get rid of the lead.

 

[xd45gaper]

beats me, im supprised i dont have lead posining my self from all the lead ive handled over the years. my grandmother used to have this printing press that took lead type and i would always play with it when i was little from there ive melted lead, handled bullets(prolly a million .22s), shot firearms that shoot lead cast bullets, handled prolly a ton of lead from fishing weights, used my teeth to bite the splitshot sinkers. Been exposed to lead paint, and god knows what else from the 1960's aircraft that i work on. and well i havent died. yet that is lol

i do find this thread very interesting if we could come to the conclusion on if lead is soluable in water or not. Im sure water has some corrosive properties towards lead (if very very small)

 

[K-Romulus]

more info

Here is a guy's master's thesis on a similar topic:

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-02252004-092216/unrestricted/CalebDScheetzThesis.pdf

DISSOLUTION, TRANSPORT, AND FATE OF LEAD ON SHOOTING RANGES
CALEB D. SCHEETZ

from page 7:

Lead metal rapidly oxidizes in
shooting environments leading to the formation of lead carbonate, oxide, and sulfate
corrosion products (Jorgensen 1987; Lin 1995; Lin 1996; Chen 2002; Cao 2003). Murray
(1997) reported that lead contamination from a shooting range in Michigan could
potentially impact the local groundwater. Bruell (1999) reported that a shooting range
with lead contaminated soil leached enough lead to pose a significant risk to associated
surface and groundwater. Several authors have reported limited vertical lead migration in
shooting range soils beyond the surface horizon (Lin 1995; Astrup 1999; Chen 2001;
Chen 2002). Several previous studies have utilized the toxicity characteristic leaching
procedure (TCLP) on shooting ranges (Pott 1993; Murray 1997; Bruell 1999; Basunia
2001; Chen 2001; Chen 2002; Cao 2003) to determine the potential hazard that the lead
might pose to the groundwater system and if the soil should be considered hazardous
waste.

and from pages 22-23:

A surface water sample collected at
the location of SR-22 (Figure 3), had a lead concentration of 333 ppb. Surface water
samples taken from pooled rainwater on the shotgun range had lead concentrations, ranging from 4 to 333 ppb. Measured lead concentrations and pH’s from surface waters
were similar to those found in the deionized water-soluble extraction (Figure 6). It can be
assumed that the deionized water-soluble extraction data represent the maximum lead
concentrations attainable in surface water samples on the range because of the lengthy
agitation period during the extraction. Craig (1999) also sampled Craig Creek, the stream
that drains this range. Upstream of the shooting range where the stream is presumably not
influenced by shooting range activities, the stream had a lead concentration of 0.5 ppb.

Maybe there are other sources of lead contamination than just the range? I don't know, but it doesn't look good.

From pages 23-24:

Shooting ranges in different settings will undoubtedly show different lead
reservoirs and pathways (Figure 1), which mandates site-specific geochemical
investigations. For example, shooting ranges on abandoned mine sites that have acidic
sulfate soil/overburden will likely show higher dissolution rates of lead shot and bullets
due to the acidity and significant lead sequestration in the form of anglesite (PbSO4).
Chlorides from salt spray could form lead hydroxychloride corrosion products on shot
found on shooting ranges adjacent to marine environments (Graedel 1994). Environments
rich in organic matter will have acidic soils with dissolved organic compounds that can complex
lead to promote significant dissolution and mobility of lead (Lin 1995).

 

[AZ Jeff]

Here is a practical point of evidence to solubility of lead:

Have any of you guys ever seen a lead projectile that's been in the ground MANY, MANY years? I have dug up Minie-balls from the American Civil War. Those projectiles have sat in the ground, exposed to water, for 100+ years. The projectile still clearly has it's original shape, with lubrication grooves, etc, albiet with a whiteish oxide coating. In NO WAY can such projectiles be considered to be even partially "dissolved" by the presence of water.

I wonder if some of you who doubt the insolubility of lead actually buy into the whole environmental mantra of "lead is bad", regardless of it's application.

I think there are just too many variables in the environmental conditions to automatically conclude that metallic lead in the water table is an environmental/health hazard.