Ca Fish & Game lead bullet ban hearing next month.
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thats not much but over time i guess it would eventually add up if you kept drinking unfilterd ground water, eh
he never said how much lead was in the creek below the shooting range?.
the guy in F&S was hunting with his .50 BMG
im sure it gets corroded to jford1, but im sure its VERY VERY Slowly. but a ton of lead in the ground from a shooting range which wouldnt be to uncommon to me, all corroding at once...
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About the miniballs:
They may not be dissolved but the white powder coating is lead oxide and toxic if it gets in your system. I'd still wash my hands after touching them. The same goes for lead fishing weights that are white and corroded—don't stick them in your mouth.
More sarcasm:
I wonder if any of these lead demented condors have passed their ingested projectiles back at anyone from high altitude. Now that's a really scary problem!
They may not be dissolved but the white powder coating is lead oxide and toxic if it gets in your system. I'd still wash my hands after touching them. The same goes for lead fishing weights that are white and corroded—don't stick them in your mouth.
More sarcasm:
I wonder if any of these lead demented condors have passed their ingested projectiles back at anyone from high altitude. Now that's a really scary problem!
ScottsGT
Member
I bet there is a casino there now
Another thing to consider about outdoor ranges. Maybe the lead levels are elevated due to the primers and lead that normally gets in the air in an indoor range and not from the projectile itself.
Condors are interesting animals.
They raise them here and in Boise, ID, and release them in the Central Coast area of California. They were going extinct.
Now the question is, how much will it cost, and will they still go extinct? If they were going extinct before, what has changed? Why would the population return to a healthy, self-sustaining number?
My guess is that they won't. I'm not sure what drove them to extinction in the wild, and what is different now. I can't think of much.
I think that a number of dead ones drank antifreeze. It's not politically feasible to ban antifreeze.
They raise them here and in Boise, ID, and release them in the Central Coast area of California. They were going extinct.
Now the question is, how much will it cost, and will they still go extinct? If they were going extinct before, what has changed? Why would the population return to a healthy, self-sustaining number?
My guess is that they won't. I'm not sure what drove them to extinction in the wild, and what is different now. I can't think of much.
I think that a number of dead ones drank antifreeze. It's not politically feasible to ban antifreeze.
XD45gaper: My point was that there already is tons of lead in the ground in Missouri at least. We mine it, make bullets, and shoot it back in the ground. It's one beautiful environmental cycle.
Also—primer lead in the air is only a problem indoors because of the concentration and ease that our lungs absorb it. Outside the wind dilutes the lead dust so much it would never settle or stay confined to the shooting area much less be an environmental hazard.
Also—primer lead in the air is only a problem indoors because of the concentration and ease that our lungs absorb it. Outside the wind dilutes the lead dust so much it would never settle or stay confined to the shooting area much less be an environmental hazard.
SoCalShooter
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Amred Bear that is a fine point. Is the lead bullets the only thing that has caused the extinction of the animals? or is it the fact that they were being poached and hunted into extinction? So it really probably has nothing to do with lead atleast not much.
K-Romulus
Member
re: indoor vs. outdoor
I wouldn't be so confident about the outdoor areas.
HHS did a study of the FBI's training ranges in Quantico back in 1991.
The indoor air quality re:airborne lead was better indoors (none on the firing line) than outdoors, even when both had folks just shooting 9mm (presumably FMJ)!
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1991-0346-2572.pdf
But this is getting into thread drift territory . . . I return everyone to the California issue.
I wouldn't be so confident about the outdoor areas.
HHS did a study of the FBI's training ranges in Quantico back in 1991.
The indoor air quality re:airborne lead was better indoors (none on the firing line) than outdoors, even when both had folks just shooting 9mm (presumably FMJ)!
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1991-0346-2572.pdf
But this is getting into thread drift territory . . . I return everyone to the California issue.
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Neither.
They're carrion birds. Giant vultures.
I think they originally ate a lot of poisoned varmints. Ranchers used to poison coyotes. That killed a lot of them. They went extinct in the wild years ago; they were first re-released from captive breeding programs in San Diego and Boise, in 2000, AFAIK.
Anyway, they eat carcasses. That's where they injest bullets.
I'm thinking that varmint hunting matters more than deer, though, assuming that lead does come from hunted carcasses. How many deer are lost in our semi-desert terrain? If they're lost, how many bullets are in them?
A pile of dead varmints has a lot more lead in it, per pound of edible meat, than a lost deer. And there are lots more shot varmints around.
AZ Jeff
Member
Be careful in quoting that report as conclusive evidence that lead from outdoor shooting ranges poses a health hazard. If you read the details, part of the issue for the persons in that situation was they wore the same clothes in their living quarters as they used on the range 8 hours a day, thereby introducing the airborne lead compounds from the primers into a non-range environment.
My main reason for responding to this thread repeatedly is that there are different ways that lead from shooting can enter the environment, and not all of them have equal potential for causing secondary effects. Solid lead projectiles (not lead shot, but actual BULLETS) are among the more benign lead products from shooting, and cannot be categorized the same way a lead shot with waterfowl or lead salts from primer residue. Unfortunately, that is exactly what various environmentalists are trying to do.
Wasn't the science of lead proven or bunked on a solid projectile? The lead in gun shot residue originating in the primer was the only remotely hazardous material?
I am sure given the proof from research already conducted the deciding principles may just choose to ignore the inconvenient truth.
I don't have any links for this. Hard for me to forget so many things though. I sure it's all online just look for it.
I am sure given the proof from research already conducted the deciding principles may just choose to ignore the inconvenient truth.
I don't have any links for this. Hard for me to forget so many things though. I sure it's all online just look for it.
bg
Member
Ok. I stand corrected. State Fish & Game. As a matter
of fact, I received a reply from an e-mail I sent >
of fact, I received a reply from an e-mail I sent >
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What a bunch of PC crap!! CA should fall off the edge.
If a condor is so stupid it will eat a lead bullet from a lost game kill ( How probable not explained) they should become extinct.
Typical emotional CA response.:banghead: :banghead:
If a condor is so stupid it will eat a lead bullet from a lost game kill ( How probable not explained) they should become extinct.
Typical emotional CA response.:banghead: :banghead:
Libertylover
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Even if the whole lead contamination isn't an issue, I still think steel core bullets shouldn't be banned. Any way to effect this would be useful, I suppose.
Three bits of clarification:
1. I think that DFG thinks that the lead source is gutpiles. That makes more sense than lost deer, since there are more gutpiles and more bullets per pound of edible meat in a gutpile.
2. If, in fact, the Condors were eating poisoned varmints, and we stopped poisoning them, then there has been a change in the environment that could save the Condor in the future.
3. Carrion birds have VERY acidic digestive tracts and could easily dissolve lead. Whether lead dissolves in water is a non-issue. The question is, does it dissolve in highly-concentrated acid. It does, of course.
On the other hand, it seems like, if the birds have a chance, they eat whatever poison they can find. Poisoned coyotes, bullets in gutpiles, bullets in varmints, puddles of antifreeze. Seems like if one thing doesn't kill the stupid vultures, something else will.
This is about money, BTW. The captive breeding programs are really expensive. If you want to see the real source of the pressure, don't look to DFG, which frankly is thoroughly pro-hunting here. Look to the people who are funding the multi-multi-million-dollar breeding program for the birds.
Some info:
http://www.peregrinefund.org/world_center.asp
http://www.peregrinefund.org/conserve_category.asp?category=California Condor Restoration
http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-condor.html
http://cres.sandiegozoo.org/projects/sp_condors_recovery_program.html
Now the one thing that's really a potential problem is that they hope to spread the birds all over the place, down through San Diego, into Mexico, and east into Arizona.
This could increase the "Condor range" to include a lot of hunting areas.
The Catch-22, of course, is that, if the birds are prolific, then there's a lot less justification for making broad laws designed only to protect this one species. That's probably why there's pressure to make the laws now. If they wait until there are Condors everywhere, then there won't be much support for a law like this.
That said, California hunters can be conservationists as well. We have an arid region with a lot of housing, etc. Without conservation, we know that hunting won't be happening here. DU has been big here for a long time. The problem arises when environmental wackos take over the process.
1. I think that DFG thinks that the lead source is gutpiles. That makes more sense than lost deer, since there are more gutpiles and more bullets per pound of edible meat in a gutpile.
2. If, in fact, the Condors were eating poisoned varmints, and we stopped poisoning them, then there has been a change in the environment that could save the Condor in the future.
3. Carrion birds have VERY acidic digestive tracts and could easily dissolve lead. Whether lead dissolves in water is a non-issue. The question is, does it dissolve in highly-concentrated acid. It does, of course.
On the other hand, it seems like, if the birds have a chance, they eat whatever poison they can find. Poisoned coyotes, bullets in gutpiles, bullets in varmints, puddles of antifreeze. Seems like if one thing doesn't kill the stupid vultures, something else will.
This is about money, BTW. The captive breeding programs are really expensive. If you want to see the real source of the pressure, don't look to DFG, which frankly is thoroughly pro-hunting here. Look to the people who are funding the multi-multi-million-dollar breeding program for the birds.
Some info:
http://www.peregrinefund.org/world_center.asp
http://www.peregrinefund.org/conserve_category.asp?category=California Condor Restoration
http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-condor.html
http://cres.sandiegozoo.org/projects/sp_condors_recovery_program.html
Now the one thing that's really a potential problem is that they hope to spread the birds all over the place, down through San Diego, into Mexico, and east into Arizona.
This could increase the "Condor range" to include a lot of hunting areas.
The Catch-22, of course, is that, if the birds are prolific, then there's a lot less justification for making broad laws designed only to protect this one species. That's probably why there's pressure to make the laws now. If they wait until there are Condors everywhere, then there won't be much support for a law like this.
That said, California hunters can be conservationists as well. We have an arid region with a lot of housing, etc. Without conservation, we know that hunting won't be happening here. DU has been big here for a long time. The problem arises when environmental wackos take over the process.
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