CA law and loading .40 mags with 9's

[natedog]

I know this has been covered before and I know it is legal in states where hicaps are legal. I've even seen signed ATF letters saying that it's legal. But here's my question: is it legal in Cali? Here, we can't have hi caps, period. Not even pre bans. I could just see it: blasting away at the range with a .40 mag loaded with 9's, and a friendly local law enforcement officer arrests me for having an illeagal and evil hi cap mag.

 

[timbo]

I live in Los Angeles, CA. I would recommend not taking any chances and avoiding it unless you really have to use a .40 mag. Chances are that you'd get more crap from the range owner than any police officers, but I prefer to error on the safe side. I would also recommend doing something I have done a few times, call your local police station. I do it whenever I have a question about anything that might be illegal, borrowing guns, shooting paintball guns in the backyard, what knives are a no-no, etc. I've found that they are very helpful for these types of questions and I have yet to get any strange inquiries because of suspected wrong-doing.

 

[railroader]

natedog, preban hicaps are legal you just can no longer buy them in cali or order them out from of state. If you owned them prior to 1/1/2000 they are fine( there aren't dates on them). You can also can rebuild your prebans by ordering replacement parts, I know I ordered some parts for my CZmags. As for 40 cal mags they are 10 round mags that happen to hold more rounds of 9mm, you haven't manufactured a hi capacity mag. Mark

 

[10-Ring]

I have asked around re: 40 mags in my 9mm pistols. As far as I've gathered, since I have not altered the mags, I'm ok.

 

[BerettaNut92]

California so far has no opinion but I don't want to become case law.

Actually I'd take your police department's opinion with a grain of salt. I got two detectives in an argument whether a Ruger 10/22 with thumbhole stock was legal under SB23, and others think that high capacity mags are illegal altogether. I asked a few LEO friends about importing butterfly knives and all thought it was illegal until they looked up 653k and then all said it was kosher after taking a second look.

Long story short these guys are too busy enforceing the law most don't have time to keep up with our 'representatives' whose fulltime job is to create more laws.

 

[Mute]

Depends on how CA DOJ wants to define "manufacture."

The local DA might manufacture a charge against you for manufacturing a hi-cap magazine by filling your .40 legal magazines with 9mm rounds and converting it into a high capacity magazine.

I wouldn't hold my breath on their leniency regarding this matter.

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

I tried to call the local PD for law advice once, you know what they told me "We don't know, we don't give law information, we just enforce it."

Sadly, lawyers are the best bet, and a copy of the state and federal law.

 

[gudel]

"We don't know, we don't give law information, we just enforce it."

sad thing is, how do you enforce laws that you don't even know.
look up the "manufacture" definition according to their context.

 

[bountyhunter]

I Live in Kali Too

High caps are ABSOLUTELY legal in Kali as long as you had them before the ban took effect (I have many of them). I have spoken to the Ca DOJ on this subject, and it is their opinion it is NOT a violation of the law to load 9mm rounds into a .40 magazine even if more than ten fit in the magazine. It clearly is illegal if you significantly modify the magazine to do this. As for law enforcement, they would have no legal cause to question you for shooting a high-cap magazine at a range because they have no way of knowing when you bought it. As far as I know, they can not ask for proof of when you bought it.

The only way you will get nailed is if that mag has the "LE ONLY" stamp on the shell required by federal law on all hi-caps made after the federal ban went into effect. If they see that, it means that mag was bought for LE use. If you ain't LE, you're screwed.

 

[Prodigalshooter]

bountyhunter nailed it. I should relate my search for a .40 mag for my CZ 75B so I could upload 9mm into it, making it a legal hicap.
It didn't work. I tried two different mags, one a genuine CZ and the other an aftermarket; neither would retain the 9mm rounds, the feed lips were not curved in enough. Had I altered them, then I would have been "guilty" under the Calif. laws. I have heard people say they'd done it sucessfully, but my attempt was wasn't so lucky.

 

[Hellspawn]

edited

 

[artherd]

Since Standard Cap magazines are legal in CA if purchased before 1/1/2000, many people posess and use them lawfully at the range and for carry. I luckily was smart enough to bag a few G17 standard-caps in various capacity, because I knew I would own a G17 one day.

So there would be no special need for harassment. (by the same token, I would not go on and on loudly about how you "Just bought these new mags! <blasts 15 rounds in one go>)

Because ANY purchase or gift or transfer (new, used, etc) of a standard-cap magazine is illegal under CA law, even if the gun they belong with is sold. They go with you to your grave (or to a free state.)

 

[Hellspawn]

edited

 

[railroader]

Hellspawn, Xd 40 mags weren't manufactured before 1/1/2000.I live in cali tooand I use xd 40 mags in my 9mm, they work great and they look almost identical. I shoot at matches with them and so do alot of other people. The trick with the xd40 mags is to slightly pinch the feedlips(about 20/1000"). The mags will then work perfectly in both the 9mm and the 40. You can go to the XD forum and buy them already adjusted for about $23.50 shipped. Mark

 

[railroader]

here's a letter about 9mm in 40 mags. Mark

 

[Hellspawn]

edited

 

[railroader]

Hellspawn, sorry I am having trouble getting the letter to post but I can email you a copy. No I'm not in law enforcement, but you aren't creating a post ban hicap using a 40 cal mag it just happens to hold more than ten rounds. It states that in the letter from the BATF. As for the cz75 and the xd. You can't go wrong with either one. I like them about the same. The cz is a bit more accurate but the xd shoots really well too. Hey I'm going to be in norco ca. sunday to shoot a match if you live anywhere near there come by and you can shoot them both. You can email me for directions. Mark

 

[Cosmose]

ok.... let me get this straight you can put 9's in a 40 mag and it'll work
how many can you stuff in? will it feed reliable???

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It really depends on the brand of gun and the mags themselves.

I've got several guns where it works, and several others where it doesn't.

With my CZs, it'll work if I use EAA Witness mags, but not with CZ mags. I've also found that the Pro-Mags for the CZ-75 Compact (in .40, which CZ planned to introduce but currently doesn't offer) works exactly like the factory hi-cap in the 9mm Compact model.

With a Star Firestar Plus the .40 mag is absolutely identical to the 13-round hi-cap mag.

Its a case of trial and error. You may have to tweak mag lips -- but I don't think that's "altering" or "manufacturing," since adjusting mag lips is routine maintenance on mags, over their life. And it can easily be undone.

 

[Hellspawn]

Thanks Railroader! I recieved your email. I would love to meet you at the range, but unfortunately I am no where near Norco. I'm in Ventura County, maybe if you are up here or somewhere around LA we could meet up. your xd is the standard version with the 4in barrel, correct? I wonder if the 5in tactical XD would be closer accuracy wise to the cz75...
Thanks again!

 

[railroader]

Hellspawn, from what I have read the 9mm tacticals are really hard to find and they aren't on the california safe list so you couldn't get one anyway. I personally like the balance of the 4"xd better than the 5"xd. I really don't think the accuracy is an issue between the two length barrels. To be honest I have done better shooting steel matches with my xd than my cz75 but the cz will shoot tighter groups. Mark

 

[jar]

A short note of caution to the California folk.

If you read the California regulations, the ban is not actually on the magazines, but on the use of them. In several places it refers to possesion, lending or use of magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds. So, even though the BATF has no problems with using a 40S&W to hold 9mm ammo, and even though in many guns (SiGs and the XD for sure) it works effectively, in CA you could be in deep kimshee doing so.

Each person needs to make their own decisions on this, but as the CA laws are written, if you used a 40S&W mag holding 15 9mm rounds, you could be charged.

IMHO, the possible penalties (for example losing what little access to firearms you still have) far outweigh any possible gain.

 

[railroader]

Jar, wouldn't that make all 40 cal mags illegal in cali since they will all hold more than 10 rounds of 9mm? Mark

 

[Hellspawn]

railroader, yeah I heard that the xd9 tactical wasn't on the CA safe list, so I emailed springfield and they told me that it should be approved any day now.

I am leaning more towards the cz75 now, but I have to decide between the cz75b and the cz75b sa...

 

[jar]

railroader


It's not the potential the way the law is written, but the actual use.

As the law is written, if you have a post law magazine that is loaded with more than 10 rounds, you're in violation. Most any magazine will hold more rounds if the rounds are smaller. For example, you could proably put a zillion 22s in a 45acp mag. But it wouldn't function so it just doesn't happen.

But the relationship between the 40S&W or 357SiG mags and the 9mm cartridge presents an opportunity to hold more than 10 rounds and still function. So from a practical point of view, it's a great idea and BATF has given their blessing.

But the CA Laws are different. They are well written in that they address an act, not the device. They say that if you use a post law magazine that holds more than 10 rounds it's a No-No.

Just seems like too big a risk to me.