El Rojo
Member
Quite true. This is probably what happened.
They are all confused between the two. I think if they are willing to vote no, then that is good enough for us. It doesn't matter which one it is.
CA: Two bills to BAN HANDGUNS to be voted on THIS WEEK!!!
- Thread starter Beethoven
- Start date
- Status
Jim Diver
Member
Maybe I am expecting too much for the legis-critter to know what he is voting for or against..... So much for informed decision making.
shermacman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,751
Beethoven
Let me help here: Remember in the Superman show when the bad guy dumped six rounds from his wheel gun? The bullets bounced off of Superman's chest. Now the dangerous part, the bad guy throws the unloaded gun at Superman and Superman ducks!!!
A gun with out ammo is enough to scare Superman. That is enough for me!
Seriously, Beethoven is absolutely right, these two bills are ridiculous, it will make ammo prohibitively expensive, it won't stop criminals, and it looks like they passed. We have a lot of work to do.
Let me help here: Remember in the Superman show when the bad guy dumped six rounds from his wheel gun? The bullets bounced off of Superman's chest. Now the dangerous part, the bad guy throws the unloaded gun at Superman and Superman ducks!!!
A gun with out ammo is enough to scare Superman. That is enough for me!
Seriously, Beethoven is absolutely right, these two bills are ridiculous, it will make ammo prohibitively expensive, it won't stop criminals, and it looks like they passed. We have a lot of work to do.
jefnvk
Member
I'd give the guy a break. The two bills are a few numbers apart, and roughly do the same thing.
MrTuffPaws
Member
So, does anyone know the actual status of these.
Jim Diver
Member
A pack of lies........
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/02/state/n163128D57.DTL
(06-02) 16:31 PDT SACRAMENTO, (AP) --
Dueling proposals to identify handgun bullets to help police solve shootings were approved by state lawmakers Thursday, despite concerns the requirements are impractical or would harm law-abiding citizens.
Ammunition manufacturers would be required to laser-cut each bullet with a serial number under the Senate bill, while the Assembly version requires guns to stamp identification numbers on bullet casings each time they are fired.
"With a simple magnifying glass (police) can read that identifying number ... and determine who purchased that ammunition," said Sen. Joseph Dunn, D-Garden Grove, who is carrying the Senate version. "This is a tremendous benefit for law enforcement."
The Senate sent the measure to the Assembly on a 21-14 vote, while the Assembly proposal by Assemblyman Paul Koretz, D-West Hollywood, passed 41-37 despite heavy opposition from gun groups. Both passed by one vote.
Ammunition manufacturers said that Dunn's bill will either force them to abandon the lucrative California market or force them to install unaffordable technology to mark the 8 billion bullets they make each year.
The bill would punish anyone possessing unmarked ammunition outside their home after July 2007, though Dunn said he is working with law enforcement to amend the bill so owners could use older bullets at firing ranges.
"A law abiding citizen has nothing to fear," said Sen. Jack Scott, D-Pasadena, comparing the markings to the use of fingerprints or DNA in crime solving.
Dunn's bill would require purchasers to pay up to a halfpenny per bullet to fund record-keeping by the state Department of Justice on every handgun-caliber bullet made or sold in California. Vendors would pay up to $50 a year to register. Rifle ammunition would be exempted, though some calibers are used in both handguns and long guns.
Opponents of Koretz's bill said criminals could file down the guns to remove the microstamping or use revolvers, which don't eject shell casings.
Assemblyman Todd Spitzer, R-Orange, said Koretz' bill would make it easier to frame someone by spreading cartridges around a crime scene that hadn't come from the shooter's gun.
"In some criminal prosecutions, the only evidence linking a defendant to that murder is shell casings, nothing more," Spitzer said.
Koretz said much of the opponents' arguments were "dead wrong," including the claim that someone would be able to file off the microstamping.
"This will work almost perfectly," Koretz said. "Every casing will have a number that's tied to a database."
___
On the Net:
Read SB357 and AB352 at www.leginfo.ca.gov
Attorney general's office: www.ag.ca.gov
California Rifle and Pistol Association:
www.crpa.org
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/02/state/n163128D57.DTL
(06-02) 16:31 PDT SACRAMENTO, (AP) --
Dueling proposals to identify handgun bullets to help police solve shootings were approved by state lawmakers Thursday, despite concerns the requirements are impractical or would harm law-abiding citizens.
Ammunition manufacturers would be required to laser-cut each bullet with a serial number under the Senate bill, while the Assembly version requires guns to stamp identification numbers on bullet casings each time they are fired.
"With a simple magnifying glass (police) can read that identifying number ... and determine who purchased that ammunition," said Sen. Joseph Dunn, D-Garden Grove, who is carrying the Senate version. "This is a tremendous benefit for law enforcement."
The Senate sent the measure to the Assembly on a 21-14 vote, while the Assembly proposal by Assemblyman Paul Koretz, D-West Hollywood, passed 41-37 despite heavy opposition from gun groups. Both passed by one vote.
Ammunition manufacturers said that Dunn's bill will either force them to abandon the lucrative California market or force them to install unaffordable technology to mark the 8 billion bullets they make each year.
The bill would punish anyone possessing unmarked ammunition outside their home after July 2007, though Dunn said he is working with law enforcement to amend the bill so owners could use older bullets at firing ranges.
"A law abiding citizen has nothing to fear," said Sen. Jack Scott, D-Pasadena, comparing the markings to the use of fingerprints or DNA in crime solving.
Dunn's bill would require purchasers to pay up to a halfpenny per bullet to fund record-keeping by the state Department of Justice on every handgun-caliber bullet made or sold in California. Vendors would pay up to $50 a year to register. Rifle ammunition would be exempted, though some calibers are used in both handguns and long guns.
Opponents of Koretz's bill said criminals could file down the guns to remove the microstamping or use revolvers, which don't eject shell casings.
Assemblyman Todd Spitzer, R-Orange, said Koretz' bill would make it easier to frame someone by spreading cartridges around a crime scene that hadn't come from the shooter's gun.
"In some criminal prosecutions, the only evidence linking a defendant to that murder is shell casings, nothing more," Spitzer said.
Koretz said much of the opponents' arguments were "dead wrong," including the claim that someone would be able to file off the microstamping.
"This will work almost perfectly," Koretz said. "Every casing will have a number that's tied to a database."
___
On the Net:
Read SB357 and AB352 at www.leginfo.ca.gov
Attorney general's office: www.ag.ca.gov
California Rifle and Pistol Association:
www.crpa.org
What the hell does that mean? It's like a woman being "a little bit pregnant."
If people can get fake license plates to stick on their car to commit crimes, what makes them think that the same can't be done with random shell casings?
MrTuffPaws
Member
Oh Fing great. Now we have to deal with the Democrat in Republican clothes Arnold. He will sign these to into law, no doubt.
Vodka7
Member
Do you guys really have to pick apart a typo to mock this guy? It's obvious from the very next sentence that he knows exactly what this bill does:
"Criminals will be able to confuse the police and send them on 'wild goose' chases by simply throwing around at crime scenes expended cartridge casings (having a make model and serial number imprinted on them) from other firearms."
Cut him some slack for using firearm twice in the sentence instead of cartridge the first time and firearm the second time.
And he actually brings up a good point... Spend some time at the range picking up expended cartridges in your caliber of choice and throw them all around the crime scene. Now cops have dozens of leads they have to follow through on even though it's guaranteed at best only one or two may possibly pan out at all.
"Criminals will be able to confuse the police and send them on 'wild goose' chases by simply throwing around at crime scenes expended cartridge casings (having a make model and serial number imprinted on them) from other firearms."
Cut him some slack for using firearm twice in the sentence instead of cartridge the first time and firearm the second time.
And he actually brings up a good point... Spend some time at the range picking up expended cartridges in your caliber of choice and throw them all around the crime scene. Now cops have dozens of leads they have to follow through on even though it's guaranteed at best only one or two may possibly pan out at all.
Gordon Fink
Member
MrTuffPaws said:
I doubt he will sign them, but if he does …
~G. Fink
>>Someone at the NRA needs to get their act straight. I know for a fact it said that AB 352 failed 33 to 30 at approximately 1430 hours until about 1515 hours when I left work.
Hello. I'm the person that updates
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml The information was accurate - the bill was defeated twice before it finally passed the Assembly on the 3rd vote.
>Its not the NRA's fault this time (cept they did little to notify PRK members).
Well, we used the ILA voice-mail system, the ILA grassroots alert system, the state CAL-ERTS system, and the state webpage (sometimes updated more than one in a day). I personally received both voice-recorded phone calls and emails from Fairfax, and CAL-ERTs from the state website. I updated our state webpage almost every day, sometimes several times/day, whenever the stituation changes, (changing the time-stamp in the top-right corner). We provide a "IMPORT" tool that displays abridged (but LIVE!) CA legislative info on any website with only a few lines of HTML (see http://nramemberscouncils.com/importlegs.shtml). Your NRA lobbyist was at the capitol every day, sometimes well past midnight, passing e-signals to the NRA Members' Council activists even at that late hour for targeted emails and phone calls.
On the state site, we provide the ONE-CLICK system as well as comprehensive contact info for each lawmaker. We try to focus members on those bills that can be affected the most at any moment (so that effort isn't wasted).
NRA members can get closer to this ring of activity by joining your local NRA Members' Council (it's free), this tool will identify yours...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/
If you have any suggestions as to how we can reach more gun-owners, let us know at:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/msg/
Mike Haas
NRA Benefactor Member, volunteering as...
Electronic Communications Director, NRA Members' Councils of California
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/
President, NRA Members' Council of West Contra Costa County
Owner and Author, http://AmmoGuide.com/
------------------------------------
You may enjoy some of my personal web sites...
------------------------------------
http://NRAWinningTeam.com/
http://PatriotBoxers.com/
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/lifeclock/
Hello. I'm the person that updates
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml The information was accurate - the bill was defeated twice before it finally passed the Assembly on the 3rd vote.
>Its not the NRA's fault this time (cept they did little to notify PRK members).
Well, we used the ILA voice-mail system, the ILA grassroots alert system, the state CAL-ERTS system, and the state webpage (sometimes updated more than one in a day). I personally received both voice-recorded phone calls and emails from Fairfax, and CAL-ERTs from the state website. I updated our state webpage almost every day, sometimes several times/day, whenever the stituation changes, (changing the time-stamp in the top-right corner). We provide a "IMPORT" tool that displays abridged (but LIVE!) CA legislative info on any website with only a few lines of HTML (see http://nramemberscouncils.com/importlegs.shtml). Your NRA lobbyist was at the capitol every day, sometimes well past midnight, passing e-signals to the NRA Members' Council activists even at that late hour for targeted emails and phone calls.
On the state site, we provide the ONE-CLICK system as well as comprehensive contact info for each lawmaker. We try to focus members on those bills that can be affected the most at any moment (so that effort isn't wasted).
NRA members can get closer to this ring of activity by joining your local NRA Members' Council (it's free), this tool will identify yours...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/
If you have any suggestions as to how we can reach more gun-owners, let us know at:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/msg/
Mike Haas
NRA Benefactor Member, volunteering as...
Electronic Communications Director, NRA Members' Councils of California
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/
President, NRA Members' Council of West Contra Costa County
Owner and Author, http://AmmoGuide.com/
------------------------------------
You may enjoy some of my personal web sites...
------------------------------------
http://NRAWinningTeam.com/
http://PatriotBoxers.com/
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/lifeclock/
BTW folks, June 3rd was an important deadline.
Every year, to become law that year, bills MUST pass out of their house of origin by a certain date. This year that deadline was June 3rd.
So as of today, "AB" bills that didn't make it out of the Assembly and "SB" bills that didn't make it out of the Senate, are dead for the year. The best they can do is to be converted to what's called a "two-year bill", which means they can come back next year to try again.
If one of these "dead for the year" bills fails to become a "two-year bill" (for example, the author doesn't ask for it), it is dead permanently (well, dead as a bill number - the same language could resurface under another bill number - called "gut & amend".)
So expect a lot of bills listed at:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml to become "inactive" very soon (those that didn't pass their house of origin). I'm in the process of verifying the details with CA NRA staff now (they verify everything that's posted).
TO STAY TUNED TO THE LATEST...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml
(watch the "Last Updated" timestamp top-right)
TO VOLUNTEER WITH CA NRA...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/
TO DISPLAY LIVE CA LEGISLATIVE INFO ON *YOUR* WEBSITE...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/importlegs.shtml
TO SIGNUP TO RECEIVE "CAL-ERTs"...
http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/calerts-signup/
Thanks,
Mike Haas
PS. While the bills that DID just switch houses are assigned to committees, you won't see ONE-CLICK links assigned at http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml for them yet. But as we learn where they are, and NRA wants us to target opposition to the bad bills and support for the good one, you will see them appear there in the "Action Needed" column.
Every year, to become law that year, bills MUST pass out of their house of origin by a certain date. This year that deadline was June 3rd.
So as of today, "AB" bills that didn't make it out of the Assembly and "SB" bills that didn't make it out of the Senate, are dead for the year. The best they can do is to be converted to what's called a "two-year bill", which means they can come back next year to try again.
If one of these "dead for the year" bills fails to become a "two-year bill" (for example, the author doesn't ask for it), it is dead permanently (well, dead as a bill number - the same language could resurface under another bill number - called "gut & amend".)
So expect a lot of bills listed at:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml to become "inactive" very soon (those that didn't pass their house of origin). I'm in the process of verifying the details with CA NRA staff now (they verify everything that's posted).
TO STAY TUNED TO THE LATEST...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml
(watch the "Last Updated" timestamp top-right)
TO VOLUNTEER WITH CA NRA...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/
TO DISPLAY LIVE CA LEGISLATIVE INFO ON *YOUR* WEBSITE...
http://nramemberscouncils.com/importlegs.shtml
TO SIGNUP TO RECEIVE "CAL-ERTs"...
http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/calerts-signup/
Thanks,
Mike Haas
PS. While the bills that DID just switch houses are assigned to committees, you won't see ONE-CLICK links assigned at http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml for them yet. But as we learn where they are, and NRA wants us to target opposition to the bad bills and support for the good one, you will see them appear there in the "Action Needed" column.
Jim Diver
Member
You know, I am gonna have say something that you may not like. I think the NRA lobbyist should be relieved and replaced. He clearly is not getting results. Two of the most distructive bills I have ever seen are very close to passing and going to the gov. No logical person would vote for these bills. If he is not capable of getting the results we want, he should be fired. Ed's list of failures is getting longer and longer every year and the list of victories is non-existant.
The NRA is supposedly the most powerful lobby is existance, I think we should be getting better resutlts.
Sorry, but as a member of the NRA, I expect results.
I hate to say it on this forum, but the NRA is not even close to being the most powerful lobby in the U.S. It is powerful, but I would rank it at around #4 at the very highest (and that's being generous)...and a distant 4th from the top three. Be that as it may, I feel your frustration. It seems as if the NRA has given up on Kali and is saving its strength for what it considers winnable fronts. As it is, if these bills pass, the fight is basically over and a gun ban for average law-abiding Kali citizens will essentially be in place. And if manufacturers actually grab their ankles and make guns and or ammo which comply with these potential mandates, the costs will be so high for these Big Brother items, that it will be like a tariff for Kali citizens.
Meanwhile, never mind filing off serial numbers or serial number imprinters...criminals can just as easily go across state lines and buy and or sell ammo to other criminals who won't be as concerned about violating the new laws against carrying unstamped ammo as they would about getting caught for murder if they should use Kali-special guns/ammo. End result, no crime will be solved with these laws. But that was never the point anyway, was it?
The_Antibubba
Member
A database that this state cannot afford to set up or enforce. Kali can't even afford to fix the roads or the schools. Those programs would be huge, and the money to run them would not likely pass a budget.
And a different database for each bill.
El Rojo
Member
Thanks for the explination Mike.
If you really want to be effective in lobbying in this state, you need to support the CRPA and maybe Gun Owners of California more than the NRA. No offense to the NRA, I am a Friends of the NRA Chairman, but just look at it practically, the NRA deals with 50 states and they know we are pretty much screwed here. If you really want to get the most bang for your buck, join the CRPA and/or GOC in additional to your NRA membership.
Part of the problem isn't so much that the NRA is failing its job, but that this state is so far gone, there is nothing we can do. When your representative is a bleeding heart that thinks guns are evil, how are you going to change that? Vote against them is about it, but you are hopelessly outnumbered. Sorry, but sometimes in the PRK we are just plain screwed.
Our best bet of defeating these items now lies with Arnold. He vetoed the ammo tax before, he might veto these as well. We need to make him aware that if he signs these in, he will not receive our votes again and he needs us. And save the I voted for McClintock rhetoric, it is a dead horse.
If you really want to be effective in lobbying in this state, you need to support the CRPA and maybe Gun Owners of California more than the NRA. No offense to the NRA, I am a Friends of the NRA Chairman, but just look at it practically, the NRA deals with 50 states and they know we are pretty much screwed here. If you really want to get the most bang for your buck, join the CRPA and/or GOC in additional to your NRA membership.
Part of the problem isn't so much that the NRA is failing its job, but that this state is so far gone, there is nothing we can do. When your representative is a bleeding heart that thinks guns are evil, how are you going to change that? Vote against them is about it, but you are hopelessly outnumbered. Sorry, but sometimes in the PRK we are just plain screwed.
Our best bet of defeating these items now lies with Arnold. He vetoed the ammo tax before, he might veto these as well. We need to make him aware that if he signs these in, he will not receive our votes again and he needs us. And save the I voted for McClintock rhetoric, it is a dead horse.
I don't believe this is a recent event - from what I observed in living there in the 80's and 90's they gave up on Kalif after Roos-Roberti was passed. I think Kalif remains a good cash cow for the NRA, but they're not going to expend limited resources there.
I understand the frustrations of California gun-owners, and the implications these bills will have if they become laws on the rest of us. Certainly anti-gun advocates in other states will try to pick up the ball and run with it.
But frankly, there isn't much the NRA can do when the California Legislature is absolutely dominated by the most left of left-wing Democrats. The legislators in question come from districts where they are absolutely safe when it comes to being re-elected. Put bluntly, urban California is perhaps the most sheeple/nanny-state part of this country that there is. I think it is proper that the NRA's limited resources be expended where there is a chance of winning.
California isn't that place.
On the other hand, some lobbying at the governor's office may do some good. We will all hope so.
But frankly, there isn't much the NRA can do when the California Legislature is absolutely dominated by the most left of left-wing Democrats. The legislators in question come from districts where they are absolutely safe when it comes to being re-elected. Put bluntly, urban California is perhaps the most sheeple/nanny-state part of this country that there is. I think it is proper that the NRA's limited resources be expended where there is a chance of winning.
California isn't that place.
On the other hand, some lobbying at the governor's office may do some good. We will all hope so.
What Old Fluff said. There is only so much the NRA or any gun rights organization can do given the circumstances of our Legislature and the makeup of our state voter base. The NRA could spend $100 million dollars to fight a proposed CA bill, but no matter how much they spend, they're not going to convince a San Francisco liberal to vote against that gun control bill anymore than Don Perada is going to convince me to vote for a tax increase to fund higher welfare payments.
The best thing any gun rights organization can do is get the word out to gun owners and those who believe in personal freedom. Even then it's at some point up to the individual to actually get out there and write letters and make phone calls (something I could be better at) and vote. If every gun owner that I have heard griping in the line to get into the gun show actually got out there and made his or her voice heard and voted, it would make an incredible difference for the state.
Lastly, I have to say that the NRA does a great job of letting us know what goes on in the state. There have been a couple of times when I've gotten three NRA-ILA Alert updates in the same day. Every Alert has a link to a really nice website that has contact info for all your Representatives, as well as a quick and easy way to email them. If you're not getting these alerts, then you either deactivated them (why?) or you're not a member of the NRA (why not, especially in CA?)
Ben -- NRA Life, CRPA, GOA
Information updated, as promised:
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/legs.shtml
BTW, of all the groups mentioned, the NRA MCs are 100% volunteer (run by us and you if you join, the NRA membership) and the only group that holds monthly meetings in over 25 areas across the Golden State...
http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/mc/directory/
Ever been to one? Everyone else takes membership dues, but have ZERO meetings - ever. The MCs don't have a membership fee either - just be an NRA member and registered to vote. We need you!
The MCs are an excellent vehicle to get more involved HANDS ON in these issues and actually accomplish something. Find out your local group and be more than a shooter, complainer and money sponge at:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/
NRA needs a Second Amendment Army in California. We made one. Now we all benefit by making it as strong as possible.
Mike Haas
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/legs.shtml
BTW, of all the groups mentioned, the NRA MCs are 100% volunteer (run by us and you if you join, the NRA membership) and the only group that holds monthly meetings in over 25 areas across the Golden State...
http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/mc/directory/
Ever been to one? Everyone else takes membership dues, but have ZERO meetings - ever. The MCs don't have a membership fee either - just be an NRA member and registered to vote. We need you!
The MCs are an excellent vehicle to get more involved HANDS ON in these issues and actually accomplish something. Find out your local group and be more than a shooter, complainer and money sponge at:
http://nramemberscouncils.com/volunteer/
NRA needs a Second Amendment Army in California. We made one. Now we all benefit by making it as strong as possible.
Mike Haas
This is absurb. You serial stamp the shell casing, and all someone has to do is put your shells at a crime scene to frame you. Since shell casings fly all over at gun ranges, this isn't far fetched, a BG can collect shell casings from other guns and then use them at the next crime he commits. Use revolvers after this passes, until the kind Nazis find a way to ban revolvers.
Further, how do you dispose of the shell casings after using at the range? You throw them away, and some bastard might find them in the garbage and then use them against you later (frame job). Do you send them to the police department to be destroyed?
Even serial numbering the bullets is absurb. All someone has to do is steal bullets from a law abiding owner, and then the owner is SOL.
As far as stamping each bullet as it is shot, that will prove very expensive to make, and even less reliable in the field IMO.
All TERRIBLE ideas, and another step to disarming the good folks of California.
Further, how do you dispose of the shell casings after using at the range? You throw them away, and some bastard might find them in the garbage and then use them against you later (frame job). Do you send them to the police department to be destroyed?
Even serial numbering the bullets is absurb. All someone has to do is steal bullets from a law abiding owner, and then the owner is SOL.
As far as stamping each bullet as it is shot, that will prove very expensive to make, and even less reliable in the field IMO.
All TERRIBLE ideas, and another step to disarming the good folks of California.
jnojr
Member
+1
I went to the San Diego NRA-MC meeting last month. There was maybe 15 people there. They said it was the biggest turnout they'd had in years.
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