Caliber vs Competency

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

marb4

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
386
A few years ago my wife expressed interest in going to the range with me once in a while so we bought her a Browning Buckmark for plinking and general fun. The pistol is accurate, easy to shoot, and very reliable. She doesn't shoot a lot but is proficient with the gun and seems to enjoy shooting it. Our bedside HD gun is a Glock 17 which she has shot a few times but doesn't "like" shooting it. As a result, my wife very rarely (if ever) trains with the Glock and is not nearly as proficient with it as compared to her Buckmark.

So I'm looking for some THR opinions. I find myself out of town more and more for work and have some concern that should my wife ever need a firearm for self defense in the home that her lack of training with the Glock might put her in a very bad spot under the extreme stress of a home invasion. My question is this, would she be better served with a 22 she is proficient with or a 9mm that she isn't? Curious for your thoughts. Thanks.
 
1. www.corneredcat.com for professional advice on women's SD choices.

2. Everyone worries about the zombie mummy werewolf giant meth head coked up biker who will absorb rounds like a swiss cheese and keep coming.

In the vast majority of DGUs, putting rounds into someone is better than not and the vast majority of criminals will go away or cease when they take rounds.

Get professional training for her. Till then use the gun she can use.
 
It's kind of a two part question.

Yes, a .22 she can hit with is better than a 9mm that she can't hit with.

However, most of us would concur, any adult with full motor function can learn to run a G-17. Yes, it will have more recoil than a .22, and you do have to get used to it, but it is learnable and manageable. This is why so many police and military agencies use large autos in 9mm. It might be more than she is used to, but she can learn it if she is willing.

I wouldn't have my wife use a .22 defensively if something bigger was available.
 
My Wife and I are in a very similar situation. When we met 34 years ago our first date was to go to the shooting range and shoot my Dan Wesson .357 with full house 158 gr. .357 loads. We were kids and I was an avid shooter and reloading. We had a blast.

We married...over the years we have fallen out of shooting regularly but she owns a Colt Officers ACP that she used to shoot very, very well.

Now she's in her 50' s and has a little arthritis and has lost some strength/vitality but we have resumed shooting and she is loving it. But some of the guns she just gets beat up by. She adores our new Ruger LCR .38 but it simply beats her up. We have worked out some hand loads and she is working her way up from some light hand loads to more potent stuff.

We also won 2 Colt 1903 Model M's in .32 ACP and she loves shooting them and they don't beat her up with recoil...even with my hot .32 acp handloads they don't scare her but they are pretty far down the ladder from out Beretta Px4 subcompact 9mm which she shoots well but it beats her up. Mostly it's the stiff recoil springs and the hard to rack slide, mag releases that hurt her thumb, slide releases that actually casue bruises etc.

Her "Go To" gun for SD/HD is her Ruger LCR .38 with 125 gr. super light hand loads. I'd feel better if she'd be able to handle something hotter but it is what it is. Not a lot better than a hot .32 or a .22 but it's what she can shoot well and be confident with. I'd not hesitate to get her a .22 or .22 mag version of the Ruger LCR if she wanted that.

A .22 she can hit with and feels comfortable with beats her Colt Officers in .45 acp that she is just plain afraid of. A .22 she can hit someone with 4 or 5 times fast is a pretty potent SD piece. Way better than no gun at all. Lot's of folks are gonna give you advice that basically tells you "she can handle a 9mm or something bigger - she just has to train and get over the recoil sensitivity" but my Wife will not likely ever get to that point. Many folks simply don't get the fact that not everyone can be "trained" to ignore the recoil and work past it. Some folks are limited to what they can handle and all the training or experience and mindset in the world will not change that. We can't all shoot bigger calibers with the resultant bigger push and shove. Many folks don't get that.

VooDoo
 
Last edited:
Again with this...........

Get her one that works for her, but the .22 is better than nothing..............
 
A lot of people have died from .22 wounds. Doesn't mean it is a reliable defensive weapon, but you have to honestly decide if the choice is ".22 or nothing." .22 is better than nothing, by a long shot.

But, an inexpensive pump 20 ga. would be a whole lot better still.

The next thing to consider though, is what is her practical training level? What has she really done with that .22? Standing on a firing line a few times a year and poking holes in a bullseye target at a leisurely pace may give someone a very false sense of competency.

In truth, if someone is pounding on the locked bedroom door she's behind, she may not really be more proficient with that Buckmark than she is with that Glock. It won't seem much like plinking at that bullseye, and the skills needed won't be anything similar.

Can your wife FIGHT for her life with that .22? That's what we're talking about here. Don't let "is it good for a fun afternoon at the range?" be how you settle the question.
 
If you cannot hit the target with a particular gun then it is worthless for any type of use. Most shooters have a max recoil level that they can tolerate and shoot well. New shooters often have to practice with a larger caliber to adjust to the feel and recoil to see if they can shoot it well. If you shoot a 22 virtually all the time, anything else will feel strange and uncomfortable.
 
but the .22 is better than nothing..............
Click to expand...
IMO: A 10-shot .22 she can shoot well is a LOT BETTER then nothing.

You put 5 of 10 .22 holes in somebody's chest?
They are going to go try to find something more fun to do then dying on your living room carpet!!

rc
 
A .22 is good.
A shotgun is far better.
Inside the house, I don't see the point in relying on a handgun, but this is all beside the point.
The .22 will work.
 
When an intruder, burglar, whatever, is beating on your door and they hear that first round discharge, they instantly have to make a decision. "Is the risk of being shot worth the potential gain from what I am trying to get?" The answer is almost always, no. I'm not sure how many people have ever heard a 22 fired in a room. I have. They are pretty loud. And I seriously doubt if a bad guy is going to stick around to contemplate what caliber/gauge gun that was that was just fired at them.

So.... Is the 22 the best? No. But if she is truly proficient and accurate with it, and isn't with the Glock, it will beat the Glock any day.
 
"they instantly have to make a decision. "Is the risk of being shot worth the potential gain from what I am trying to get?"

One thing to ALWAYS keep in mind:
Statements like this assume that we are dealing with a rational person. The odds GREATLY favor the fact that we are NOT dealing with a rational person.

This doesn't mean that they won't run. What it does mean is that you can not think about a situation and assume a criminal is going to act in the same way you do. They don't think like you do. They don't have the same value system as you do. They are almost certainly high, drunk, high and drunk, and/or jonesing on top of everything else. They are doing something that isn't rational to begin with. They have PROVEN that they arn't using what we would consider good judgement. You don't know what they are going to do, you don't know what they are thinking and the odds are, neither do they.
 
This is true too.

But if she can hit a beer can most of the time, rapid-fire at 15 feet with her .22??

She can do almost as well hitting the BG's sinus cavity's and eye sockets at 5 feet!

That right there would end Attila the Huns last raid for him!

She just needs the mind-set & practice to do it, if the time ever comes.

rc
 
This is a convoluted situation to be sure. As Sam points out, it's not just how much you practice but 'how' you practice. Practicing with deliberate purpose is the key. I agree that standing on the firing line and casually poking holes in paper does not prepare you to fight for your life with a handgun. I wholeheartedly believe that proficiency trumps equipment choice. A cool head and skilled hand with a .22 is in a far better position than an addled neophyte with a .45. Since she likes shooting the Buckmark, I would concentrate on her proficiency with it. I would suggest some professional training, which will educate her on 'how' to practice.
 
The odds GREATLY favor the fact that we are NOT dealing with a rational person.
Click to expand...

What criminological evidence to do you that suggests most criminals are meth head zombies as compared to economical motivated criminals? A vivid instance is not evidence of the odds.
 
Elmer Keith (big gun guy) said a 22 is small until it is pointed at you.
 
tanklesspro said:
IMO, only people that have been shot by a 22 can say weather it is a "viable" self defense round.
Personally I use a 45.
Click to expand...

Did you have to get shot by a 45 before you decided it was a viable self-defense round for you?
 
Generally, I would take competency over caliber any day of the week. Of course 22 isn't ideal, but it's better than nothing, and all things being equal, it's better to hit with the 22 than it is to miss (or fail to fire) with the 9mm.

That said, did she ever say why she didn't like the Glock? Does it fit her hands, is the sight picture comfortable and natural for her?

There are a lot of things that make people not like guns, and of course she is better doing her own research and deciding what she likes and what fits her best. E.g. my wife hates my 9mm but would much rather use her SA 44 mag and is very proficient with it; guess what is her preferred SD gun?
 
A lot of "better than nothing" responses. Better than nothing is far, far from an even semi effective solution.
I know three men who've been shot with .22's. One at long range and not really applicable. But two that were shot relatively well (?), center of mass, both non criminal, innocent good guys (so I'm glad that if they had to be shot, it was a .22).
Neither of those two were deterred in any meaningful way, in fact both became a little more angry and aggressive in their response. Both survived with minimal medical attention. Neither one went to the ground or were slowed down by the shots.
One was shot once, the other twice. Their hits all would have been fatal with a more serious caliber considering the circumstances.

Incredibly antectdotal I know, but my take is that it IS better than nothing, but not effective enough to realistically consider. In both cases a baseball bat or pepper spray would have been far more effective in disabling the target.

If only we could rely on a .22 for (close to) reliable self defense. It would make choosing a gun for the elderly a lot easier.
J
 
There are no guarantees that any round will do anything. In Afghanistan, my unit called in an airstrike with an A-10 on some bad guys who were spotting mortar rounds, and they saw a guy run away from the scene. They followed him to the next village, and found him with a 30mm hole through his shoulder. No guarantees.

However, there ARE degrees of likelihood. When you repeatedly shoot someone with a .22, their likely reaction is much less certain than if you shoot them with....pretty much anything else. The amount of cavity trauma cased by a .22 is so little compared to other rounds, when you do tha math, you see why learning to get good, multiple hits with pretty much anything else is preferable to a .22.

A man can take multiple hits from a .22 and keep moving, often with no visible signs of being hit at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tkMYoOLAhk
 
IMO competency beyond basic handling and shooting isn't as important as willingness and resolve. Many people, even though armed, will not defend themselves against a threat because they are not willing to kill or injure another human being or they are worried about legal issues rather than their own life and health. The caliber of the firearm isn't near as important as the willingness of your wife to shoot and the level of marksmanship skill needed for SD in a most situations is minimal as the range is usually very short.

Things that bothers you when practicing with a firearm like recoil, noise and flash don't even enter ones attention when more pressing business like staying alive is at hand. As long as your wife is able and willing to load, point and fire the Glock its perfectly adequate. With 17 rounds in the mag you have plenty of ammo to lay down fire. The important thing to have set in ones mind is to fire until there is no longer any threat.
 
This doesn't mean that they won't run. What it does mean is that you can not think about a situation and assume a criminal is going to act in the same way you do. They don't think like you do. They don't have the same value system as you do. They are almost certainly high, drunk, high and drunk, and/or jonesing on top of everything else. They are doing something that isn't rational to begin with. They have PROVEN that they arn't using what we would consider good judgement. You don't know what they are going to do, you don't know what they are thinking and the odds are, neither do they.

Baloney and I challenge you to post data supporting your position.

The fact someone thinks differently than you does not mean they are irrational. Far from it. Criminal behavior is best compared to that of wolves. Wolves choose the weakest animal to try to kill whether it is alone or in a herd. If the victim gives them too much unexpected resistance they will break off their attack.

Criminals rationally assess the risk vs. potential profit. They are usually successful because most folks walk around in Condition White and are totally unaware of their surroundings.

Statistics show most criminals will break off their attack when a gun is presented. For those that don’t that’s what the bullets are for.

It is also well proven that when the leader of a mob, group or gang is taken out the rest of them lose interest in playing anymore. (p.s. It usually isn't the loud mouth).

When an intruder, burglar, whatever, is beating on your door and they hear that first round discharge, they instantly have to make a decision. "Is the risk of being shot worth the potential gain from what I am trying to get?" The answer is almost always, no. I'm not sure how many people have ever heard a 22 fired in a room. I have. They are pretty loud. And I seriously doubt if a bad guy is going to stick around to contemplate what caliber/gauge gun that was that was just fired at them.

The need for survival is the most basic need of the human body. For a person bent on murder/suicide that’s what the bullets are for.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
VERY proud of my wife.
Replies
14
Views
1K
tbtrout
T
M
  • Locked
Home defense handgun
2 3 4
Replies
96
Views
4K
Robert
Robert
A
  • Locked
My wife wants a .22 WMR pistol for self-defense. Now what?
2 3
Replies
54
Views
16K
Sam1911
S
R
  • Locked
Handgun recommendations
Replies
7
Views
569
jeepmor
J
G
  • Locked
Wife's gun-- Bersa Thunder .22 vs. Beretta 21A .25 acp
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
Biometric
B
Back
Top