Caliber vs Competency

[BSA1]

Marb4,

As a general rule you will find many of the posters do not understand the differences in the upper body strength of men vs. women and are totally unsympathetic to any medical restrictions a woman may have. In fact I was called a liar once on the forum because the poster did not believe my wife can ride a horse while shooting a single action revolver (Cowboy Mounted Shooting), fight off a mugger but cannot operate the slide of a semi-automatic handgun.

We have tried a lot of different guns but a month ago we finally hit upon the solution. We discovered that she can handle and shoot a Colt Police Positive Special in 38 Special without any problems double action. The slighty smaller frame, lighter weight and different trigger pull due to the Colt’s V spring made all the difference.

SAM1911 says it best with “Can your wife FIGHT for her life with that .22? That's what we're talking about here. Don't let "is it good for a fun afternoon at the range?" be how you settle the question.”

A resolute person with a firearm and the will to survive will almost always come out alive.

If you are not totally comfortable with her being alone with just a 22 get a Rottweiler!

 

[jenrob]

Try a .22 mag. Another thing to do is get a 22 conversion for the glock. If she likes it then have her practice and plink with it. Then have her shoot 2-3 rounds of 9mm just so you and herself knows she can hit the target with it. Then keep practicing with the 22. When you get home take the conversion off and loss up the 9mm. If anything does go down. You both know that she can shoot and hit her target. In a high stress situation just like hunting without ear plugs she's not going to be notice the more recoil. Not to say she shouldn't practice with the 9mm but it's the same concept as shooting 38 specials at the range then loading with 357 mag for defense.

 

[mljdeckard]

I had a .22 kit for my G-17, and I got one for my 1911 too. (Now the only problem is to get .22 ammo.)

 

[Bezoar]

Take the woman to a gun store. LET HER HANDLE ALL THE GUNS SHE WANTS

90% of the time she is going to find a nice big full size semi auto in 9mm that fits her hands properly. Thats the problem she is having with out any questions to her.
I have big man hands, yet i cant fit the grip of an glock in my hand. Yet a nice 1911 fits like a j frame

 

[peacemaker45]

You know they make heavy steel 9mm pistols, right? Things like the Browning Hi-Power, CZ75, etc. That would make the 9 a lot easier to shoot than the lightweight Glock, with its heavy, mushy trigger.

However, some real training would probably be a better use of $600 or so.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Three suggestions:

Have her try a large (not a micro) .380 such as a Bersa Thunder 380 Plus, CZ 83, or Beretta Cheetah.

If you want to stick with 9mm, try a Beretta Px4 Storm. The rotating barrel dissipates recoil and may wife can shoot a hundred rounds out of it before complaining.

Or a heavy 357 revolver loaded with 38 special defensive ammo.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Like said way above, why not a 20ga shotgun. Mossberg has a lot of very reliable shotguns in many configurations and for not a lot of money.

Take a look here:
http://mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-500-special-purpose-500-20-gauge-6-and-8-shot/54300

That shotgun is available from Bud's online for only $363 Shipped!
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/..._id/84510/Mossberg+500B+20g+20"+8+SHOT+CB+SYN

My main HD weapon is a short barrel Mossberg pump shotgun loaded with #4 Buckshot. I have a 4" .38 Special revolver as a backup along with a good flashlight.

 

[wproct]

My all-time favorite house/home defense gun is a double action revolver shooting good 38 special +P defense loads. Smith & Wesson Models 60 or 686. Ruger SP101 or GP100. I like 3-4 inch barrel models. No safety, always ready to go. Easy to check whether loaded or not, and no worries about magazine spring tension, jamming, etc. But, it needs to suit the user. Everybody has preferences.

 

[481]

A few years ago my wife expressed interest in going to the range with me once in a while so we bought her a Browning Buckmark for plinking and general fun. The pistol is accurate, easy to shoot, and very reliable. She doesn't shoot a lot but is proficient with the gun and seems to enjoy shooting it. Our bedside HD gun is a Glock 17 which she has shot a few times but doesn't "like" shooting it. As a result, my wife very rarely (if ever) trains with the Glock and is not nearly as proficient with it as compared to her Buckmark.

So I'm looking for some THR opinions. I find myself out of town more and more for work and have some concern that should my wife ever need a firearm for self defense in the home that her lack of training with the Glock might put her in a very bad spot under the extreme stress of a home invasion. My question is this, would she be better served with a 22 she is proficient with or a 9mm that she isn't? Curious for your thoughts. Thanks.

If constrained due to strength/other physical limitations, and one of my loved ones can put rounds where they need to go with the .22LR, then that is what they need to use.

As for your wife's situation, making an assailant weather a hail of 40 gr. .22-caliber RN slugs is going to be her best bet, especially if she can keep them all center of felon. The 'lesser' effect of the diminutive .22-caliber round will likely require an increase in volume of fire delivered to the offending knuckle-head, but that can be addressed through a little extra quality training and perhaps an extended-capacity magazine for the gun if such an animal exists.

Happy New Year!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

444 wrote:

Statements like this assume that we are dealing with a rational person. The odds GREATLY favor the fact that we are NOT dealing with a rational person.

BINGO! It's foolish to expect a home intruder to be rational.

On a different note, my wife's 20 gauge Remington 870 shotgun is smaller and weighs less than my 12 gauge 870 and hers kicks more than mine.

 

[GLOOB]

Is it a control issue or a training issue?

I'd personally take the 22LR over a gun I simply couldn't control.

But I'd take nearly any reliable 9mm, even if I hadn't trained with it. I mean, as long as I have shot it before a few times, I'd be ok with it. Heck, I haven't shot my nightstand gun in a year.

I'd say let her have the 22LR, but leave her a 9mm, too. Just in case she changes her mind when there's a bump in the night. When a gun is "too much" for someone, it's usually cuz it hurts. I don't think she's gonna care when there's an intruder in the house.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I read the post that says a guy can get shot with 2 .22 and just get angry...that the .22 simply cannot stop/incapacitate/kill and I understand that. I have heard the stories and know this scenario to be true. But.... This Summer here locally we had 2 individuals shot in center mass with a single .22 lr....one was a good guy shot in the back and the other was a BG shot just above the sternum. Both individuals, according to witnesses, "dropped like a rock" and never moved, moaned, nor were animated again. Both were pronounced DOA.

I talked to a doctor (I do a lot of work at the local hospitals as an AV/systems technician) that examined the guy shot thru the upper chest...the bullet punched thru into the chest cavity, punctured both lungs and the aorta, and lodged in the spine directly behind his collar bone. The bullet was *in* his spinal cord.....dead as a door knob when he hit the ground as the doc put it.

Lucky shot? Indeed...I would call that a lucky shot. Had it not been that lucky maybe 4 or 5 following it would have increased the odds of incapacitation/death. He would not be incapacitated quicker or faster out of action if the round had been a .40 or a .45. They key is placement and fast follow ups. My Wife shoots about 400 rounds a month and has access to professional training and has handled and shot everything we found attractive/fit her hands. She simply cannot hit anything more than once with the bigger calibers...the recoil beats her up and the second shot is off the paper.

.22 and hot .32 acp she can put 3 rounds per second in a 4" group while moving laterally. She's getting to where she can do it with her light loaded .38 Ruger LCR and her Px4 Storm sc but the loads are so light in the LCR I question if it will outperform the .32 acp running 1050 fps and yielding 200fpe that she shoots like crazy. Training can fix a lot of recoil sensitivity *but* it won't solve the problems of racking slides and releasing mags with small/weak thumbs or manipulating stiff safeties....a 110 lb Woman may be able to be trained to handle a larger caliber but I do not want her to find out she can't hit what she's shooting at repeatedly/accurately when the threat is standing in the living room.

She'll have to depend on something smaller caliber wise and she feels good/hits good with her .22s, .32's, and light loaded .38s. Hopefully we'll never have to find out that she shot him 4X in the chest and he didn't stop. But there is a place for just settling down and practicing with what works best/fastest and making the most of it. 4X .22 is not optimal but with confidence and a lot of serious training (we train more than target shooting/shooting paper bulls eye) a smaller caliber shot well can give a defender a lot of confidence. We fight like we train when the chips are down and it becomes a fight for life - fine motor skills go out the door and training should take over. Having shot a .22 or .32 and hit exactly what she shoots at in accurate and fast follow up fire done tens of thousands of time will have to be the best we can hope for. We are both convinced that if she tries that with her Colt Officers ACP if will not work for her in her time of need. She may yet master and become confident with her Beretta Px4 subcompact 9mm as that is moving ahead very well with some weight training and work on hand, wrist, and upper body strength conditioning.

VooDoo

 

[pigger]

I agree!

 

[telomerase]

If someone come to us and says "I don't like 9mm recoil and noise", then let's stop telling them to get a shotgun

Use whatever you can actually use... just giving yourself a flinch isn't doing yourself any favors in a future emergency. And if they don't shoot much, maybe a revolver is more likely to have the safety off at the critical time.

Oh, and Velocitors are a bit different from the .22s of yore.

 

[NuJudge]

Its more than just the caliber

My father bought a .32 cap Walther PP for my mother about 1967. She hated it. I let my wife shoot it a few years ago, and she hated it also. My daughter also dislikes it. It has to do with the blowback action and the muzzle rise associated with it.

Wife & daughter like shooting .38 Specials in a 4 inch barreled 586 or 6 inch barreled M27

 

[Nom de Forum]

When you consider the statistics indicating that the "competent" frequently miss when in the gravest extreme; I certainly think she should use what she is competent with in practice.

 

[mac66]

34 years in Law Enforcement has taught me a couple things...

1. Any gun is better than no gun
2. No one wants to get shot
3. The mere presence of a gun stops most situations
4. Shot placement is more important than caliber
5. See rules 1-4 above.

In my early days in LE my wife's HD pistol was High Standard target .22 because that is the only other pistol I owned and she was deadly accurate with it. She had confidence in being able to hit whatever she aimed at 10 times quickly.

Having said that, bigger is better but I think it more important to be competent and confident than having a big boomer.

On the other hand training builds competence in bigger calibers. I wouldn't use a pocket auto as a home defense gun because they are hard to shoot well. However, a mid size gun in .32 or .380 (i.e,. Walther, Beretta, etc) makes a good HD gun for women.

 

[Jim NE]

Three suggestions:

Have her try a large (not a micro) .380 such as a Bersa Thunder 380 Plus, CZ 83, or Beretta Cheetah.

I agree with this. My disabled sister doesn't have much arm strength, so I've thought about the best SD pistol for her. I was absolutely amazed by how little recoil my Hi-Point .380 produces with it's big heavy slide. And it's VERY accurate, as well as reliable (after break in.) And not so big that it couldn't be carried.

If someone can't get past their anti-Hi Point bias, then I'd suggest something like a Bersa, though I honestly don't know how it's weight compares with the Hi Point.

 

[c1ogden]

Marb4 -
You have some good ideas presented here. mac66 brings up several valid points and it is well documented that display of a firearm "usually" solves the problem but we can't bet our lives on "usually".

I bought 3 inch S&W J frame .38s for my sister and my daughters. With factory .38 wadcutter loads the recoil isn't much more than a .22 and the .38 wadcutter is a much better stopper than a .22. This might be a good compromise as it will enable her to use the wadcutters for practice and defense until she can practice and become comfortable with standard .38 loads and possibly even move up to +P loads if you desire. There is a wide variety of grips available to fit this gun to just about any hand. The more trigger time she gets the more confident and competent she will be.