Caliper conversion cost - RCBS Vs. Dillion

[rajb123]

I have been using a Rock Crusher SS and now it is time for a progressive press. I think I have narrowed it down to the RCBS Pro 2000 and the Dillon 650.

When I look at the cost of caliper changes, the RCBS seems more economical:

1. RCBS: Shell plate and tool head = $50
2. Dillion: Conversion kit and tool head = $100

Is this a major consideration for most folks or am I missing something obvious? For the Dillon, do most people buy a separate powder measure for each caliper? If this is true, this adds an additional cost to each caliper swap of $100 or so; right?.

The RCBS APS seems like a love or hate arrangement with about 1/2 saying it is great and 1/2 saying it stinks....

 

[GW Staar]

Depends on what you need a progressive for. Both are great presses for what they are designed for. Quoting Dillon:

If you want to leave your dies preset, you'll need:
Toolhead(#13863) and a powder die(#20064) OR The 650 Quick Change(#22059),which includes a powder measure, powder die, toolhead and a toolhead stand. This allows you to leave your dies and powder charge set up and dedicated to a specific cartridge for faster, easier caliber changes.

So at least you need a powder die in addition to a tool head. Add to that a shell plate if the one you have isn't the right size for the new caliber. The Quick Change kit has a whole powder measure. That's where it gets even more expensive....and extra primer tubes. If you buy a Case Feeder Collator, then you have to by caliber specific parts for that as well.

The RCBS Pro 2000 is made to make caliber change simple. You still have to buy die plates (tool heads in Dillon-ese) and a shell plate if case base is different, but the powder measure is simpler. Adjust the mic for different charges...so you only need one P.M. Simple means no case feeder and negligible primer system change effort. (10 seconds tops). Everything on the Pro 2000 is simple. Fewer moving parts and no post setup syncing and calibration. Once is enough. In a nut shell the Pro2k is cheaper to own over time than the 650. If you choose the Pro 2000, you load a lot of pistol, and you buy a bullet feeder, then it's worth while to buy extra powder die/brackets to keep on your die plates and buy powder-through case expanders to drop in. With those two parts, you can make the Uniflow expand and charge in station 2 like the Dillon does. Then it becomes just as fast as a Dillon, plus you can put a lockout die in the stationary #3.

Without a case feeder the 650 is inconvenient....cases feed from the handle side, bullets feed on the opposite side....so if you get a 650, plan to get the collator.

The Pro 2000 is plenty fast for all but competition loaders feeding both cases and bullets manually from the left side. But you can speed it up with a bullet feeder. Spend $30 for the simple Tube Bullet Feeder, which can be upgraded to the collator-fed one (for a price). I use a Hornady bullet feeder modified with clear tubing and a stop switch. That not only speeded things up, it simplified things. A bullet feeder doesn't increase caliber change time more than a minute.

The big Pro 2000 advantage is the APS primer system. Much faster and safer. The "faster" comes when you buy CCI primers preloaded in APS strips. Otherwise loading a 100 in four strips with the Strip Loader is about the same speed as loading a 100 in a tube.....just safer.

Yes APS is a love/hate thing. Hate if you don't have the patience to digest the instruction sheet and learn a new system. Love if you do. Hate if you own anything other than a RCBS Pro 2000, love if you do. I loaded tubes for many years....not likely to buy RCBS's conversion kit for tube primers. IMO that would be really dumb.

The Pro 2000 is simple enough to even make a trouble-free quick changing case feeder. I did. Cost less than $50.

 

[coalman]

I'd buy the Blue one. It's works. Great CS support. Holds value. Separate powder measure not needed. Once I went Blue I realized the unneeded aggrivation spent on other presses. Will the small price difference matter to you 5 years from now? Buy used if possible to save $.

 

[Legion489]

All progressives will need a different shell plate for different sized case heads. They will also need different tool heads if you want to keep the dies set up. I never liked taking a powder measure off one set, putting it on another set and fiddling with it endlessly until I got what weight I wanted, then changing back needing to do it all over again. So just buy a new powder measure (or good used one). You will also need a new powder through die for each set up, but they are pretty cheap.

The Dillon powder measure is excellent, but it can be made better with a few aftermarket upgrades. The RCBS powder measure is excellent too. The Lee Disk and Pro measures are very good and I recommend/use them. The Lee Perfect Powder Measure is, shall we say, LESS than good. I believe the word I am looking for is "junk". Like Big Foot, I hear of them working, see photos, but never seem able to see one for my self that works. The one I got is, well, less than useful shall we say, so I don't recommend them.

 

[GW Staar]

I never liked taking a powder measure off one set, putting it on another set and fiddling with it endlessly until I got what weight I wanted, then changing back needing to do it all over again.

Those days are history. Typically, with a mic-metered Uniflow or Hornady Powder measure, the fiddling is only the first time. You write down in your loading journal the mic setting for the particular load. Then when you want to load that particular combination again. Pour in the powder, set the mic to the setting you documented, and test a few throws. Typically, in my experience, if I'm off at all it's just a tad in or out. At the most a mark or two. That's quick. Using a separate measure preset is not any different. Powder density changes with temperature, Atmospheric Pressure, and humidity. You still have to tweak any presets.

With a permanently set powder die in each pistol tool head, Uniflows only require that you loosen the thumb nut, release the big spring and lift off the powder measure. Then you dump it and mount on another tool head. Slip the spring on, and fasten the linkage with the Thumb nut. Depth in the tool head is determined and permanently set with the die nut, only the first time.

 

[cfullgraf]

Those days are history. Typically, with a mic-metered Uniflow or Hornady Powder measure, the fiddling is only the first time. You write down in your loading journal the mic setting for the particular load. Then when you want to load that particular combination again. Pour in the powder, set the mic to the setting you documented, and test a few throws. Typically, in my experience, if I'm off at all it's just a tad in or out. At the most a mark or two. That's quick. Using a separate measure preset is not any different. Powder density changes with temperature, Atmospheric Pressure, and humidity. You still have to tweak any presets.

Right.

Also, with the micrometer adjuster, it is easy to change to another powder charge of the same powder.

By interpolation, you can take an existing charge weight/micrometer setting and calculate the micrometer setting based on the new charge weight. It gets you close so that the "fiddling" is minimized.

NMS = (OMS/OCW) x NCW

NMS = New Micrometer Setting
OMS = Old Micrometer Setting
OCW = Old Charge Weight
NCW = New Charge Weight

Also, you can divide the Charge Weight by the Micrometer Setting and it will give you amount to move the micrometer for small adjustments when "fiddling".

Keep an inexpensive calculator handy for just such occasions.

 

[helotaxi]

Those days are history. Typically with a mic-metered Uniflow or Hornady Powder measure, the fiddling is only the first time.

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231There's the same thing for a Dillon. I have two powder measures for my 550. One has the large charge bar installed and the other the small. Other than that caliber changes are quick and simple. Even if you have a toolhead, powder die and the full caliber change kit for every cartridge, it only costs $80 per cartridge. If you reference the interchangeability table on Brian Enos's website, you can pare that cost down quite a bit. For example, the .308, .30-06 and Mauser families of cases use the same shell plate and spacer buttons as .45ACP so you only need a powder die, toolhead and powder funnel to load .308/.243/7-08, .30-06/25-06/.270/.280 etc... if you already have the .45ACP caliber conversion.

 

[GW Staar]

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1231There's the same thing for a Dillon. I have two powder measures for my 550. One has the large charge bar installed and the other the small. Other than that caliber changes are quick and simple. Even if you have a toolhead, powder die and the full caliber change kit for every cartridge, it only costs $80 per cartridge. If you reference the interchangeability table on Brian Enos's website, you can pare that cost down quite a bit. For example, the .308, .30-06 and Mauser families of cases use the same shell plate and spacer buttons as .45ACP so you only need a powder die, toolhead and powder funnel to load .308/.243/7-08, .30-06/25-06/.270/.280 etc... if you already have the .45ACP caliber conversion.

What you just helped describe is that figuring out which system costs less to add a caliber is not a such simple question. There's more to it than one thinks. Especially when you add factory and aftermarket options. Just that uniquetek mic costs an extra $60. Too bad it isn't original equipment. If it was me I'd leave cost out of it unless the difference is so huge it scares you. Pick a press based on how and what you want to load. And then see if you can afford it. If not get the next best fit.

 

[helotaxi]

No, it's not OEM. If it works, I couldn't really care less whether it came out of Dillon's shop or my neighbor's home shop. Hornady and RCBS offer mic'd screws for their measures but they are upgrades as well, not standard, unless you pay the premium up front and get their premium powder measure. Last I checked those aren't included with the RCBS or Hornady presses either . Regardless, if cost is the issue, you will have to deal with some inconvenience in the name of cost savings regardless of what brand you go with.

Knowing what interchanges between calibers is a game you can/should play regardless of the brand of press. No sense in throwing money away, which is what I think your point was. You pay to play. Choose well and you pay once for life. Function should come first. Nickle and diming the choice leads to regrets and compromising on function. If holding off on a purchase for another month gets you what you want, it's worth the wait IME.

 

[GW Staar]

I couldn't really care less whether it came out of Dillon's shop or my neighbor's home shop

Good! Then I can count my $50 homemade case feeder.

My post was not meant to be adversarial. Whether you care or not, and whether OEM or not, wasn't my point. If it doesn't come with the press it is an added cost you have to bear, that has to be added to the OEM cost. We were talking about the cost of adding calibers. Answering your post was only an attempt to suggest that such costs are complicated to add up and may not matter that much ... that's all. It's especially hard to compare apple to apples.

BTW, while basic Uniflows and Hornadys are sold individually without, both the Hornady AP and the RCBS Pro 2000 come with mics standard on their powder measures. I was just lamenting, if you will, that Dillon ought to have their progressives come with them also...then you wouldn't have had to pay the $60 extra beyond the Dillon box price. It's a good thing to have AMC's like Uniquetek come through with products needed.

There are similar things to add on the RCBS side that perhaps aren't necessary, but definitely desirable. Like powder-through Expanders. One needed per pistol caliber....and extra powder dies for pre-mounting on tool heads. But then Dillon has comparable products too...when you compare the prices....and are they going to be different enough to matter? Not to me.....that was my main point. Whether the press fits your personal needs is the important thing.

 

[helotaxi]

I think we're in total agreement, BL being function, not cost, should be the deciding factor.

FWIW, I think that the reason Dillon doesn't make a mic for their powder measure is that it doesn't fit their mental model of how their presses should be used. They think "set it and forget it" and leave the powder measure mounted to the tool head. Not budget friendly, but certainly convenient. I really don't consider it that difficult to reset the powder measure when I change loads with the standard bolt. It takes the setup time into the 5-min range instead of 2-min for a preset, dedicated powder measure or 4-min for a mic'd powder measure. I will be adding the Uniquetek mic, but the press works just fine without it. Same for all the others with their basic powder measures.

 

[highlander 5]

I'll throw my .02 in here. The 650's weak point is the priming cup,it's hard to get to when you need to change from small primer to large primer and vice versa. Talking with a CS erp from Dillon said the same thing. I'm getting lazy in my old age got tired of fighting/mangling the primer cup I just bought a 2nd 650. Easier to change the machine IMHO. And in case you asked the 550's priming system is much easier to change,caliber conversions are cheaper and it now has a case feeder. This opinion from a handloader of 40 + years and experience in most aspects of handloading except for making my own jacketed bullets.

 

[helotaxi]

My 550 has a case feeder that I paid $0 for. I call it my right hand. With efficient movement, you don't lose any time at all manually loading cases or bullets and you never have to worry about the feeder jamming, breaking or dropping a case of bullet the wrong way.