Calling yourself a Gunsmith?

[GLOCK45GUY]

I'm not too sure, which is why I'm asking, but do all good accredited Gunsmiths go to some form of professional training?

I ask because I love to tinker, and have recently done a few no-so-novice upgrades to a 1911 pistol, that I'm damn proud of I might add. I learn all the parts and how they all work and effect each other before I even take anything apart (Please note that I'm not calling myself a gunsmith, by any means)

I know my tools, and am a bit of a perfectionist to say the least.

Do some of the more experienced Gunsmiths ever open their doors to an apprentice every once in a while?

I know building a reputation takes time, and you can't buy that.

How in the hell do you get started?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, I'm not a gunsmith either, but have been tinkering all my life.

My only formal training (OJT) consisted of being a gunsmith for 5th. Army AMU pistol/rifle team during my active duty stint.

But, I wouldn't have ever got in that position in the first place if I couldn't already shoot pistols pretty darn good & tinker on guns fair to middling. (I won an Army post match against about a hundred other guys, and got sent to a 5th. Army match. Did well enough there that they kept me.)

As far as getting into the business, only a few ever make it.
And a lot of them go to the Trinidad Colo gunsmith school first.

Then apparently, there are a lot of others that got started by sweeping floors, selling ammo, and mounting scopes.
Now, they are certified gun-butchers for some darn place!

rcmodel

 

[freakshow10mm]

There is no formal certification or anything. My recommendation is to go to one of two schools: PA Gunsmith School in PA or the Colorado School of Trades. Both are nationally recognized as being great schools for smiths.

Stay away from the correspondence courses. I took one so I could learn how to work on my own guns, but would never work on someone else's nor let a correspondence course graduate work on my gun.

 

[GLOCK45GUY]

I guess I'll just keep it recreational and on my own stuff then.

I have a family to support, so moving to another state just so I can go to school is out of the question.

 

[koginam]

Their is a gunsmith apprenticeship program being accredited by the U.S. Department of Labor right now, it is a 2 year program for firearms repair and 4 years for journeyman gunsmith in one of the disciplines. you can find more info at www.taogart.org
Many smiths started the way you are but they may have taken it farther with machine training, and working with a professional smith.
Machine training can be taken at many community collages, I would suggest that if you plan on doing it for profit you take business classes as well.
If you can find a smith that will take you on as an apprentice their are some states that offer tax breaks and wage reimbursements for apprenticeships.

 

[PTK]

do all good accredited Gunsmiths go to some form of professional training?

Yes, mostly. As stated, the PA school and the CO school are your only real options outside of the government.

For what it's worth, I chose the Colorado School of Trades and I've been quite pleased. I used to think I knew a lot about firearms and tinkering, went to college for machining, etc., but just in the first two months at CST I learned more than I thought there was to know about guns.

 

[Big Az Al]

I call myself a gunsmith

My dad was building sporters when I was just barely old enough to walk. At several points in my youth the room (s) he worked in were also my bedroom. At somewhere between 5 and 10 years of age he started teaching me how to work on guns. One of the first was a beat up old Iver Johnson Revolver, it had not worked and was in pieces, "put it together and make it work". I got it together and working, He said good job and took it a part and said "do it again".

At one point (I was maybe 2 or 3) while he was waiting on the smith that did bluing, he was visiting a friends machine shop, and they were doing a batch of black oxide. He watched what they were doing and said "that looks like bluimg", It was either John, Jim or Cecil, I forget wich, said it was the same process, with out the polish. So my dad asked could they teach him, for many years from that day, my dad was in their place every chance he had bluing guns, and doing their blackoxide. He also spent alot time in the polishing room of plating shop learning from the people that made their living polishing, (heck he was a COP, and knew alot of people either from the neighborhood, or talking to them on the street, because of that) he could go in places that most people would have been thrown out of, and once it apparent that he was willing to learn and would not get in the way he was welcome.

After a several months on my Iver Johnson revolver, and watching him reassemble blued guns, I asked him could I help put some guns back together, soon I was taking guns apart and putting them back together. Somewhere after that I started fixing things that were wrong with them, and then learned how to polish them.

So if you want to laugh at a guy thats 47 years old and says "I have 40 years experience" go a head, but I will already have the best laugh!

Every now and then someone will bring in a cigar box of parts in, "what are they, and how much will you give for them"? then act surprised when I can take the parts and almost every part give make model and function, with out ever cracking a parts book! but Like I say I do have 40 years of this, that is a byproduct of all those years!

 

[Jim K]

I will say this once again. Learning the gunsmithing trade is only part of being a successful gunsmith. You need to learn how to run a business, with all that entails; otherwise you will be using your gunsmith training flipping burgers and trying to pay of the debts you incurred in trying to start a business.

Jim

 

[krs]

It would be a rare thing to find a working gunsmith who had enough patience left over to give to an aprentice.

The work itself takes more patience than is possessed by normal people.

 

[Jim K]

Good point, KRS. One lesson learned early by most gunsmiths who have a retail location is to hire some gofer to mind the counter and put up with the usual gunshop BS and baloney. If the gunsmith tries to do that himself, he 1) gets no work done and 2) completely loses patience with the "customers" which ultimately costs him his business.

Jim

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

The three posts above this one are sooooo true!

I'm not a gunsmith, I'm a locksmith, but the same rules apply.

900F

 

[The Tourist]

Well, I'm not a gunsmith either, but have been tinkering all my life.

I'm in the same boat with knives. I sharpen and repair knives, so hence, I am a tinker simply because I accomplish the work.

But the subject of credentials is slippery.

For example, I use many of the tools and practices that a Japanese sword polisher uses.

However, I cannot call myself a "polisher" for many reasons. First I am not one. Second, I have not engaged in the apprentice system. And finally, the knife community is quite small. I wouldn't be telling lies in that environment, I assure you.

But that begs the question, wouldn't it be better to just take the classes (or training at a local trade school) and be honest about the whole thing?

 

[rcmodel]

It sure would if you were trying to make a living at it.

But I'm not. It's just a life-long hobby with me.

The only time I ever got paid for being a gunsmith was when I actually was a gunsmith for 5th. Army AMU.

And that was a long time ago, in a far away place, from where I am now!

rcmodel

 

[Onmilo]

I make better money at being a machinist than I ever have at being a gunsmith.
I continue to do gunsmithing simply because I enjoy the work.

When people ask me what I do for a living I tell them "I am a gunsmith by trade, a truck driver by profession, a machinist for profit, and a farmer because nobody else wants to do the job."

 

[1911Tuner]

Some smiths learned their trade in the military as armorers and carried on after their hitch was up. Some were armorers for 20 years...retired...and never touched another gun. Some of the truly skilled ones did that. Shame.

Some smiths took the courses...hung out their shingle...and began their education. The good ones never really stop learning and improving.
The bad ones sometimes don't get past "Measure twice, cut once."

There are many gifted smiths who've never worked professionally. There are some professionals who should have stuck to landscaping, or whatever it was they did before they decided to become a gunsmith.

The lucky ones find a mentor in a skilled or gifted smith who has the patience, the time, and the willingness to teach. I was blessed. I had two such...both related to me. Blessed is the word. They taught me what to do, and what not to do...and from them, I learned the most valuable lesson. Not to quit my day job...

 

[PowderApe]

Gunsmithing School

Had a couple of buddies complete the program at Lassen College in Susanville, CA (that's NORTHERN California- where guns are appreciated!) They said it was a great program. Their graduate 'smiths are A+ quality...

They also sponsor NRA mini courses lasting just a couple of weeks in specialized skills specializing in specific weapons.

http://www.lassengunsmithing.com/

 

[krs]

Ya, the junior college program up in Susanville is very good and there's another in Arizona, Prescott, I think.

Still, there are plenty of guys who 'hang a shingle'. Today the successful ones are CNC machine programmers first, machine operators second. If they can afford their own machines they can actually make good money IF THEY CAN DEVELOP A FOLLOWING. In other words, get a name for themselves in a particular niche and be as good as possible at a few things. You know how long it takes a CNC machine center to do a checkering job on your front strap? Once the frame is locked into the jig it takes "ZZZZZZZ" - that long. You'll pay $200. for that bzzzt.

Look at the guy out in Oregon who every XD enthusiast is flocking to, sending guns from all over the country to have the guy do their triggers. The work is relatively simple, I know this because I did my own with the kits from Brian Enos's site, and the kids with their XD's can't wait to get in line. That guy must be rolling in cash, and all he was was an enthusiastic competitive shooter who liked what the XD did for his scores, as far as I know. But the kids are afraid to try to fix their own triggers, probably rightly so, and they have the money to burn. They NEED to be able to tell their buddies that THEIR trigger was done by so-and-so. It's a goldmine.

Thing is, he's smart enough to keep his tricks to himself, mostly, and he turns the work fast. He must have a heck of a support system, meaning either he or someone close to him knows how to run an efficient business operation.

 

[krs]

Want to be a gunsmith, you think?

Go get a chunk of aluminum about 2"x3".

Get a 12" and a 6" mill bastard file, get good ones.

Read up on file techniue.

That stock is so big that cutting it down to a closer size is OK, but you'd better not cut it closer than .250" from the final dimensions at first. Can't trust them power cutting tools, you know. They go offline too easy and God help you if you run into your end product. So be REAL careful when you go to rough the stock down or you'll lose before you know how it happened.

Now file your block into a cube, square on all corners, 1"x 1"x 1".

The measurements will need to be exact but to start make every flat square and dimensioned 1" +/- .001".

that's an easy beginner's project. There is NO room for any error anywhere on your cube that's larger than one thousandth of one inch.

Take your time...

 

[krs]

OK, use steel. Aluminum clogs files.

 

[Rook rifle]

Big AZ AI

KNOW just what your talking about father was a master gunsmith and to this day I will only build for my self or my son.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, krs,

That "steel cube" trick dates back to the days of apprentices when gunsmiths really did make their own locks and all the parts out of whatever steel or good quality iron was available, using nothing but hand files. I really don't think it is very relevant today. Even if a gunsmith did want to make his own action, he would likely not do it with hand files. (Even the Khyber Pass folks use machines these days!)

IMHO, and maybe just because that is my "thing" I think a gunsmith would be better off studying design and learning why things are made as they are and how they can be made better. Other areas I would concentrate on are how to turn, thread and install a barrel without marring the barrel or receiver; the principles of the lever and springs; polishing without dishing holes or blurring markings; making flat springs that won't break; how to use a mill or lathe to make small parts that can't be bought; how to figure out what a missing part needs to look like to work when there is no pattern (a surprisingly common problem); how to tell when a gun should not be fired and how to persuade the customer not to blow his head off; what headspace really means, what it is, and how it can be checked and corrected; how to choke shotgun barrels and install choke devices.

There are probably a lot more, but those will do. Filing a perfect cube is not among them, as I have never known a gun part that was a perfect cube or a gunsmith who had to make one.

Jim

 

[RogersPrecision]

'Accredation' is indicative of nothing.
Ask 1911Tuner or OldFuff if they are accredited.
All a diploma indicates is that you passed 'someones' test.
Gunsmiths are not 'made', they are born.
If you possess the mindset necessary to work fror a living, as a smith, school is incidental at best.
Basic requirements are:
Great eyesight, or corrected as such
Inherent mechanical ability
Ability to learn
Ability to communicate
Attention to detail
A 'source' of good info/advice
All else is fluff, not.....fuff.0

 

[1911Tuner]

Chuck...you left out a couple.

Dogged determination to figure out a problem and a healthy dose of Obsessive/Compulsive disorder that won't allow you to give up and throw in the towel when ya hit a wall...and you'll hit one, sooner or later.

No accreditations here...at least not for gunsmithing. I've never called myself a gunsmith anyway. I'm a mechanic. Gunsmiths do different things than mechanics. I can diagnose a problem and fix about 95% of what I run into. For the others, I recommend a good smith who has the necessary equipment for the often major surgery needed. That sometimes means about a quarter-million dollars worth of machinery and tools. A small, one or two-man shop can get by with about half that.

A gunsmith must have at least a working knowledge of the poplular designs, and the ability and the willingness to repair and/or enhance them. I'm pretty much a specialist and focus on just a few...and not in all aspects even those...save the 1911. Much easier to specialize. The general gunsmiths have my admiration and my sympathies. Jim Keenan falls into that category.

Be prepared for a long, sometimes arduous learning curve if you aspire to be a smith OR a specialist. Never stop learning...even from the odd guy who has no experience or knowledge...but sometimes walks up and puts his finger on a problem that you've gone blind looking for.

Also important is the ability to laugh at yourself. If you pursue it long enough...you'll figure that one out.

 

[Clark]

My father got an electrical engineering degree from the U of W.
He was hired to be on a team that designed the M55 gun.
That effort made him chief engineer of a Fortune 500 company for the next 40 years, where he designed lots of guns.

I got an EE degree from UW and I work on old Mausers in my spare time.

What does it all mean?
You are born with it, and degrees will not change it.

 

[Jim K]

I don't know about admiration, but just for fun, I'll tell a "gunsmith" story.

A guy came in the shop with a 7" barrel Ruger MkI that he had dropped, saying that he couldn't retract the bolt. The boss brought the gun to me, and I looked to see if the customer had left. Seeing he had, I picked up the gun and slammed the side of the muzzle down on the carpeted bench.

Fixed.

I knew that if that gun is dropped hard enough, the receiver can bend slightly, binding the bolt. I needed only a glance to see which way it needed to go to straighten it.

I think that is my record time for a gun repair. I don't know what the boss charged him, but probably not on an hourly rate.

(FWIW, the old Colt Woodsman and High Standards are notorious for that problem, as the frames are very thin and easily warped or bent, but even the M1911 can have the same problem.)

Jim