came across a great piece of history today

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Cee Zee

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My neighbor brought over a couple of handguns for me to look at today. One has a great story behind it. It's a Browning Hi-Power made by FN in Belgium likely after the Germans took over the country in WWII. It's a .45 ACP too. That fact saved the life of the man that took it from a German officer. He was checking out a house when he opened a closet door he heard a "click" sound. Inside he found the German officer pointing the Browning at him. He turned the gun over the soldier and surrendered. The soldier has an expert check out the gun to see why it didn't fire when the German tried to shoot him. Apparently all the problem was that he put a 9mm cartridge in the pistol instead of a .45 and it was just far enough away from the firing pin to not fire. Talk about your close calls.

This pistol is no run of the mill Browning. It has a bunch of scroll work and an inscription saying something like "For you on your 40th Anniversary" in French. It lists a name (Ghislaine) and it goes into detail about the gun being made by FN in Belgium. It also came with a shoulder stock/holster very similar to what is common with the Broomhandle pistols. The FN had a slot for the stock to attack in the read of the grip too. I'm not familiar enough with Brownings to know if that was common or not to be honest.

I would guess that pistol and holster is worth some money although I'm sure my neighbor doesn't want to sell it. The other revolver he showed me was worth probably $9000-$10,000. He isn't hard up for money and I'm sure he has a family member in line to get those guns when he leaves this world. Still I'd like to be able to tell him a ball park number on what that setup might be worth. So if anyone has an opinion or any info on this at all I'd like to hear it. I know he was very surprised when I told him the value of his other handgun. I just want to see his face light up when I tell him the value if I can find it and if it's worth as much as I think it might be.

BTW he wasn't the soldier that took the gun from the German. I'm not really sure how he came by the pistol but he has so many things and so many stories nothing he tells me surprises me anymore. He actually got to ride in an F4 if that tells you anything. The guy has had a full life.
 
FN Browning Hi-Power in .45ACP? Never happened. Maybe the guy had a .380 round in the 9mm BHP.
 
Gee that's funny. I just saw it with my own eyes. I'll see if I can get photos for you. I know they're rare but I've seen people talking about a few being made in searches I've done on the net today looking for info on this pistol. Besides that I know what I saw. BTW it's also a single stack.

I'm telling you this is no ordinary gun. I'm thinking some SS officer had it made special as a gift to someone likely another SS officer. Germany did control the FN factory for a good while and I know what I saw today. I know what the owner told me too. It's no doubt a rare piece. That's why I'm posting about it here.

It might not even be a true Hi Power. It says "Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre Herstal Belgique" and it looks like a Hi Power but maybe that isn't even what it is. There were other Browning designs around. It didn't have the ring for one thing but the slot for the stock was common the the Hi Power AFAIK. I'm not enough of an expert on the Hi Power to know what I'm looking at but I know a single stack .45 mag when I see it and I can hear when the owner described it being a .45 and not a 9mm and that it saved the life of a soldier because it was not a 9mm. Now if you think you have more credibility than my own eyes and ears I will have to disagree with you.

The pistol was clearly a custom build because of all the engraving and the fact that it mentions a specific person and an anniversary. I know a guy who worked in the Chevy Z28 factory back in 1971 that had a 396 engine put in the Z28 body too. If you work closely enough with a factory you can get what you want built. This could turn out to be an extremely rare gun for all I know. It looked it when I first saw it to be honest. It wouldn't be the first really rare gun I've ever seen. I know it looks like a Hi Power and I just assumed that it was that design but I know they were double stack 9mm or .40 caliber but there are people who mention rare productions of .45's.

I suppose it is possible that my vision failed me and what I actually saw was a .40 instead of .45 on the slide but I know it wasn't a 9 and I know it was a single stack. I don't think it's likely that I made that much of a mistake and I know the story the owner of this gun told me. He would have zero reason to lie or exaggerate. Trust me the guy has more stuff than 25 average people. He is one of the richest people I ever met. He owns a plane, his own runway, a 1000 yard shooting range in his back yard, 30 acres of yard with high grade polymer fencing around all if it, swimming pool, tractors, so many cars I couldn't count them and a home that looks like it belongs in the bluegrass region of Kentucky with horses running around all over. I'm telling you the guy is uber rich so it's not like he has any reason to exaggerate anything. If anything he downplays what he has. I know people with money. This guy has MONEY. He owns houses all over the country, he buys $6000 cameras as toys, UTV's, ATV's, hundreds of guns, I could go on a long time here. Just have a look at the image in the link here and you'll get an idea what his place looks like. This is just the front section BTW. If you saw the rest you'd know this is just a small view of the whole place. It shows maybe a quarter of the place.

http://www.a-framevideo.com/sunset4.jpg
 
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Cee Zee said:
Gee that's funny. I just saw it with my own eyes. I'll see if I can get photos for you. I know they're rare but I've seen people talking about a few being made in searches I've done on the net today looking for info on this pistol. Besides that I know what I saw. BTW it's also a single stack.

I'm telling you this is no ordinary gun. I'm thinking some SS officer had it made special as a gift to someone likely another SS officer. Germany did control the FN factory for a good while and I know what I saw today. I know what the owner told me too. It's no doubt a rare piece. That's why I'm posting about it here.

It might not even be a true Hi Power. It says "Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre Herstal Belgique" and it looks like a Hi Power but maybe that isn't even what it is. There were other Browning designs around. It didn't have the ring for one thing but the slot for the stock was common the the Hi Power AFAIK. I'm not enough of an expert on the Hi Power to know what I'm looking at but I know a single stack .45 mag when I see it and I can hear when the owner described it being a .45 and not a 9mm and that it saved the life of a soldier because it was not a 9mm. Now if you think you have more credibility than my own eyes and ears I will have to disagree with you.

The pistol was clearly a custom build because of all the engraving and the fact that it mentions a specific person and an anniversary. I know a guy who worked in the Chevy Z28 factory back in 1971 that had a 396 engine put in the Z28 body too. If you work closely enough with a factory you can get what you want built. This could turn out to be an extremely rare gun for all I know. It looked it when I first saw it to be honest. It wouldn't be the first really rare gun I've ever seen. I know it looks like a Hi Power and I just assumed that it was that design but I know they were double stack 9mm or .40 caliber but there are people who mention rare productions of .45's.

I suppose it is possible that my vision failed me and what I actually saw was a .40 instead of .45 on the slide but I know it wasn't a 9 and I know it was a single stack. I don't think it's likely that I made that much of a mistake and I know the story the owner of this gun told me. He would have zero reason to lie or exaggerate. Trust me the guy has more stuff than 25 average people. He is one of the richest people I ever met. He owns a plane, his own runway, a 1000 yard shooting range in his back yard, 30 acres of yard with high grade polymer fencing around all if it, swimming pool, tractors, so many cars I couldn't count them and a home that looks like it belongs in the bluegrass region of Kentucky with horses running around all over. I'm telling you the guy is uber rich so it's not like he has any reason to exaggerate anything. If anything he downplays what he has. I know people with money. This guy has MONEY. He owns houses all over the country, he buys $6000 cameras as toys, UTV's, ATV's, hundreds of guns, I could go on a long time here. Just have a look at the image in the link here and you'll get an idea what his place looks like. This is just the front section BTW. If you saw the rest you'd know this is just a small view of the whole place. It shows maybe a quarter of the place.

http://www.a-framevideo.com/sunset4.jpg
Click to expand...


I can promise you that it wasn't a 40. The 40 S&W wasnt anywhere near being invented back then.

As far as a 1971 Camaro with a 396, not that big of a deal, that engine was offered on that year.
 
It may have been something other than a High Power. A .45 ACP will not fit in a HP frame.
The .40S&W wasn't invented until the early 90's, and it's parent cartridge, the 10mm Auto only dates to the early 80's.
A 396 in a '71 Camaro isn't a big deal. Putting a .45 in a High Power is more like putting that 396 in a VW Bug.
 
Cee Zee

If everything is as you say this would be a truly amazing find. Any possibility of getting photos of the gun?
 
Now, I could see some Hi Powerish model made to court a US contract, or something, but nothing beyond a prototype. It could easily have been subsequently engraved and such and used as a corporate "gift" at some point.

TCB
 
Cee Zee, you can't blame people for healthy skepticism in a case like this. You are telling us a story about a gun that, as far as we know, can't exist. Problem number one is that no one else has ever heard of a .45ACP Hi Power. I don't consider myself an expert, but I am pretty knowledgeable about guns, and can tell you about a lot of rare and unusual prototypes, like the .45 Luger, .45 Remington Model 53, the George Wilson .45 bulls eye pistol, etc. etc., and there are lots of other members here as or more knowledgeable than I am, and none of us has ever heard of of a .45 Hi Power. The second problem is that you can't make a .45 Hi Power, at least not without almost completely redesigning the pistol. The frame's too small. Just to point out one difficulty: the magazine well is too short, front to back, to fit a magazine sized to take .45ACP cartridges. As I said, the pistol would have to be enlarged in every dimension, and this would be extremely expensive to do. Unlikely for a one off, to say the least, especially in a cartridge that was not popular in Europe, and for a pistol that wasn't going to be bought by the US (which had its own .45s already). You see the logical problems?

I'm not saying that the story can't be true. But on the face of it, it doesn't seem very likely, and as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What seems more likely is that you saw something that wasn't quite what you thought you saw. If you can show us a photo, especially a close up of the markings on the gun, that would be great, and if the gun is what you say, it would be an extremely rare, and probably valuable piece. Get him to let you take some pictures. If you want to come up with a value for the gun, you're going to need such photographs to show to the knowledgeable people who could help you find it.
 
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Pictures would help with our natural skepticism. Count me another moderately informed gun person with a couple a Hi Powers in the safe. Never hear of one in .45 and as others point out the frame and action are not of sufficient size to handle a .45 cartridge or magazine.
 
Single stack, SA, .45?

I have heard that FN made some sample 1911's. Is it possible it was a 1911 with some custom hi-powerish slide work? That would make more sense.
 
I know that there have been experimental guns where only a handful were ever made. I'm thinking there were 5-6 Lugers made in 45 ACP. The frame size was increased, but the proportions and look was the same.

I've never heard of a BHP in 45. With the design so similar to a 1911 I don't see why anyone would want to try, but I suppose it is possible a handful of experimental guns may have been made. Would like to see more on this.

http://www.lugerforum.com/45luger.html
 
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A short video that clearly shows the markings on the pistol and shows the gun being loaded and fired would be most interesting. Personally, this kind of reminds me of the .41 Mag Pythons.
 
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I'm thinking what your friend may actually have is a Norwegian Kongsberg Wapenfabrik licensed copy of the Colt 1911 .45 auto pistol.
Very early versions were in fact made for attachment of a shoulder stock/holster but interestingly, no shoulder stocks seem to have ever existed.
To have one WITH a confirmed Kongsberg made shoulder stock/holster would indeed place the gun in the 10K price range. HTH
 
^^ I thought that it might be a Norwegian, but without pics it's all a guess.

OP doesn't note that a stock was seen, just that it was cut for one. Or more likely the mainspring housing is cut for one. Maybe.

Might just be a contemporary BBQ Gun owned by a rich guy with a sense of humor and a penchant for pulling the leg of his neighbor.

In any event, the liklihood of it being *precisely* as the OP describes is about zero.


Willie

.
 
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It will definitely be interesting to see what it is.
Hopefully he'll get home from work and be able to give us some more info and maybe some pics.

Very interesting.
 
you can't blame people for healthy skepticism in a case like this
Click to expand...

No I don't blame them at all. I just know what I saw but I don't know what I saw if you know what I mean. And it isn't the Canadian built .45 that looks like a Hi Power. It is engraved in huge letters that it was made in Belgium at the FN factory.

I know it is a very rare pistol whatever it is. That's why I came here to ask questions. I've been doing research on it but I can't find anything at all about a gun like that but I did see some speculation that there were some FN built .45's prior to WWII.

As far as video and photos go all I can do is ask my neighbor if I can take some photos (should be better than video IMO - I seriously doubt he's going to want to fire that gun whatever the case). I intend to call him today and ask more questions about it.

As for the story he would explain the existence of a rare gun better than anything else IMO. German SS types had a way of getting what they wanted and a special built pistol could certainly be on the list. It is labelled as a gift for an anniversary and I can easily see an SS officer stationed in Belgium having a special gun made up. I can't confirm that of course. And my neighbor isn't the one who took the gun from the officer. But I will look into this further. I know he isn't at home this afternoon. He said he would be gone today. But I'll get with him as soon as possible.

Believe me I'm just as baffled as everyone else. But I do know what I heard and what I saw.

As for your scepticism Willie all I can say is I love it when people who aren't where I am know what I see better than I do. I did say it came with the stock BTW. I specifically said, "It also came with a shoulder stock/holster..." in the original post.

Also as for my speculation that it might have said .40 instead of .45 I do know that some Hi Power pistols were made as .40's. They didn't appear until after the way but there's always a chance that the story told wasn't true (I trust my neighbor but I have no idea who told him that story) and it may have been built much later for all I know. But the shoulder stock/holster went away pretty fast after the war so that makes me think it wasn't a post-war gun.

Lots of questions to be answered here. I'll see what I can do when my neighbor gets home. Again very little surprises me about this guy. He actually got to ride an F4 as a civilian. If you have any idea how rare that is you'll know what my neighbor is like. He had a congressman set that up for him. Nothing he tells me surprises me anymore. Him having a super rare pistol would be just another in a long list of things that he has told me or shown me that amazed me. He brought a Colt Bisley from before 1900 with him when he brought the FN. It was in near perfect condition too. Those aren't exactly common and they bring very high prices in that condition. He really didn't even know how valuable it is. His best friends are international singing stars. One wrote over 2500 published songs many of which are sang in churches around the world. You'd just have to meet the guy to understand why having a one off gun wouldn't be a surprise for him.
 
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A fascinating story.

Along with pictures (be sure to capture any and all engraving/stamp markings), might I also suggest that you actually measure the bore dimensions as well? A picture with a small engineering ruler laid across the bore showing the diameter would be really cool, too.

You might also see if you can drop a .45 ACP round in the chamber for fit.


Yeah, a specialty gun could be built, but one that would require radical changes right down to the frame itself in order to make such a gun in that chambering out of the BHP would really be going beyond a "custom" gun and right into "an entirely different gun".

I eagerly await more information!
 
OK. My brain was locked in on the story being told to me and looking at the 4 in the 40th Anniversary part of the engraving apparently. I asked the owner today and he said it is indeed a 9mm after all. Yeah I'm brain dead sometimes. But I know that he told me it was a .45 and that the officer tried to use a 9mm round in it. It turns out that the officer tried to use a 9X18mm round which didn't fire. Too bad I guess. It would have been great to see a .45. I can't get over how it looked like a single stack mag though. That part really makes me look stupid. I guess the mags aren't that wide for a double stack but still. :eek:
 
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