Can a handgun be Re-registered to you? This is a wierd one.

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I had my brother ship my gun to me through an FFL dealer. He will not release that pistol to me unless I register it under the State of Maryland.
Fault #1 of me. I did not bring my paperwork proving I owned the gun.
His explanation was even though I had proof the gun is going through his books so it has to be registered and I have to wait the eight days.
It was shipped from out of state.
This means Reregistration. Nonsense I say and I said it to him. I explained to him I will return with the paperwork. I explained to him that it is legal to have a pistol shipped to me if it is my gun and shipped to me without any registration involved provided I show documentation.
Question #1
Do I have to wait eight days again?

Do I have to reregister the gun under the state of Maryland after it has been registered?

They tried to call the Maryland State police to clarify. I am thinking about calling the ATF to clarify.

 

[Thernlund]

If it's already your gun, it doesn't even have to go through an FFL I think.

Manufactures return-ship warranty work to you directly.

Does Maryland require registration?


-T.

 

[AK103K]

If the gun goes into the FFL's books, it has to be 4473'd back to you.

Same goes if you take "your" gun in and put it up for consignment. If you dont sell it and want it back, you have to fill out the 4473 and go through the instant check "again". This is how they get the guns into the "registry" that doesnt exist.

 

[nalioth]

Same goes if you take "your" gun in and put it up for consignment. If you dont sell it and want it back, you have to fill out the 4473 and go through the instant check "again". This is how they get the guns into the "registry" that doesnt exist.

This is incorrect. The FFL holder just signs the line "returned to owner". He'd have already put your info in the book when he received it for consignment purposes.

Same deal as the broken gun > manufacturer/gunsmilth > return directly to you.


There has to be change of ownership to fill out a 4473.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

nalioth:

There has to be change of ownership to fill out a 4473.

I certainly believe that. therefore it means reduced costs to me for this guy handling this firearm. "returned to owner"

 

[harmonic]

Originally Posted by AK103K
Same goes if you take "your" gun in and put it up for consignment. If you dont sell it and want it back, you have to fill out the 4473 and go through the instant check "again". This is how they get the guns into the "registry" that doesnt exist.

This is incorrect. The FFL holder just signs the line "returned to owner". He'd have already put your info in the book when he received it for consignment purposes.

Apparantly it varies from state to state. When I was living in kalifornistan, that's exactly what I had to do: reregister and wait ten days. Meanwhile, they sold it, with my approval, of course.

 

[nalioth]

Apparantly it varies from state to state. When I was living in kalifornistan, that's exactly what I had to do: reregister and wait ten days. Meanwhile, they sold it, with my approval, of course.

The federal laws don't change from state to state. Those are what I'm quoting.

Some FFLs 'make stuff up as they go along', it seems.

 

[wideym]

Unless you can have the ATF give him a straight answer, I dought he will take any chance that he might violate a gun law.

You might have your brother fax or mail you a reciept, but I dought he would even accept that. But what's the deal with waiting eight days? Is that a Maryland ordinace? With the Instant Background Check you should be able to walk out the door with it once he calls it in.

 

[AK103K]

Some FFLs 'make stuff up as they go along', it seems.

I've gone through this with three different dealers here in PA, maybe its a conspiracy.

In each case, I had to fill out another 4473 and go through the instant check again to get my gun back.

 

[goon]

If it were your butt on the line you'd probably be REALLY careful about it too.

Odds are that you could walk in there with a talking dog, a juggling hamster, and a letter signed by three popes and he still wouldn't give you back your gun until you passed another check and let him register it to you again.

 

[CajunBass]

Odds are that you could walk in there with a talking dog, a juggling hamster, and a letter signed by three popes and he still wouldn't give you back your gun until you passed another check and let him register it to you again.

Call me. I wanna see this show.

 

[M203Sniper]

Have him ship it back to your brother and use a different FFL, then tell him he was stupid and lost business from a "Gun" guy who spends money in gun shops not browses.

 

[auschip]

Odds are that you could walk in there with a talking dog, a juggling hamster, and a letter signed by three popes and he still wouldn't give you back your gun until you passed another check and let him register it to you again.

The Aristocrats!

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

The FFL dealer has contactd the Md State police and the reply was "do a NICS check and let him have the pistol, no waiting needed and No reregistration"

Just as I thought.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

Originally Posted by AK103K
Same goes if you take "your" gun in and put it up for consignment. If you dont sell it and want it back, you have to fill out the 4473 and go through the instant check "again". This is how they get the guns into the "registry" that doesnt exist.
This is incorrect. The FFL holder just signs the line "returned to owner". He'd have already put your info in the book when he received it for consignment purposes.

Same deal as the broken gun > manufacturer/gunsmilth > return directly to you.


There has to be change of ownership to fill out a 4473.

When the owner places the firearm on consignment to the FFL, he/she is relinquishing possession of the firearm to be sold. If the firearm does not sell, the owner will have to fill out a 4473 to regain possession of the firearm. This information came directly from an ATF audit agent instructing proper procedures to a FFL I know of. A "Return to Owner" can get an FFL into trouble if no NICS check or other sort of background check was preformed when returning the firearm.

 

[kingpin008]

What dealer is this? Obviously they don't (or shouldn't) do much business, since there is no registration in MD.

If you haven't gotten your gun, have them send it back to your bro, and go through another FFL. These guys are morons. If they have to call the MSP to find out how to transfer guns, they shouldn't be in the business.

 

[AK103K]

Unless something has changed, if you have a gun shipped to another dealer, that dealer has to record the gun in his books when he receives it, does he not? When he disposes of it, there has to be able to show a record of it.

since there is no registration in MD.

If you take a gun into a federally licensed dealer and leave it, it is registered, whether you like it or not.

 

[nalioth]

If you take a gun into a federally licensed dealer and leave it, it is registered,

You say potato, I say Chevrolet. The 4473 is not a registration.

In the City of Chicago and NYC, when your make and model are on file at the police station / city hall, they are "registered".

 

[ieszu]

According to the BATFE, the act of leaving a gun on consignment is in itself a transfer of ownership as far as they are concerned. If I bring in a firearm to an FFL, leave it on consignment and want to pick it back up, I need to go through a 4473 and NICS check. IF I bring it in for repair, the owner just has to write "RTO" (Returned to Owner) and I have to sing next to it to show I received it.

 

[AK103K]

The 4473 is not a registration.

and what do you suppose happens to all those 4473's when the ATF comes in and makes copies of them, or the dealer turns them in when the close up shop?

The 4473's do in fact register you to the gun at a federal level.

 

[nalioth]

and what do you suppose happens to all those 4473's when the ATF comes in and makes copies of them, or the dealer turns them in when the close up shop?

The 4473's do in fact register you to the gun at a federal level.

Well, here in Texas, if I buy a gun and walk out the door of the shop with it, I can then:

a) throw it away

b) cut it up with a torch

C) give it away

d) sell it

and not one government agency needs to know which or any . . .

I am not legally required to keep records of sales or disposition of my firearms.

So how good is the '4473 registration' now?

Registration is when you have to report all of the above to the authorities by law.

Registration is when you have to apply to your local/state government for permission to own a firearm in the first place.

You can call it what you like, but it's not 'registration' (at least not in Texas).

 

[Cosmoline]

According to the BATFE, the act of leaving a gun on consignment is in itself a transfer of ownership as far as they are concerned.

That's my understanding as well. It's not logical, but it is the way they have interpreted their regulations.

 

[AK103K]

Well, here in Texas, if I buy a gun and walk out the door of the shop with it, I can then:

a) throw it away

b) cut it up with a torch

C) give it away

d) sell it

and not one government agency needs to know which or any . . .

I am not legally required to keep records of sales or disposition of my firearms.

I thought since the instant check went into effect, all handguns, private sales or not, had to be run through it. I might be wrong here, but I seem to remember that being part of the NICS requirements. If so, this is where the registration takes a harder turn. Guns sold before it are basically on the honor system, and can be sold between private parties without much worry, since they would have to prove you didnt sell it before the NICS went into effect, where any gun sold on a 4473 after the date, pretty much has to be, as if your found with it and it wasnt transfered into your name, it could be a problem if they want it to be.

Registration is when you have to report all of the above to the authorities by law.

You did this when you bought the gun at the FFL.

Registration is when you have to apply to your local/state government for permission to own a firearm in the first place.

Again, you did this when you bought the gun at the dealer. If you fail the instant check, you dont get the gun.

So how good is the '4473 registration' now?

Its still registration, whether you think it isnt or not. Your name is tied to the gun, by make, model, caliber, and serial number, regardless of what you do with it after you leave.

You can call it what you like, but it's not 'registration' (at least not in Texas).

What is it then, if they take your name, address, signature, SS # (if you put it down) the guns make, model, caliber and serial number? Sure sounds like the gun is registered to you at the moment you bought it. Then again, the word "is" is in registration and maybe the definition is different because of it and Texas's proximity to Arkansas.

 

[nalioth]

I thought since the instant check went into effect, all handguns, private sales or not, had to be run through it. I might be wrong here, but I seem to remember that being part of the NICS requirements. If so, this is where the registration takes a harder turn. Guns sold before it are basically on the honor system, and can be sold between private parties without much worry, since they would have to prove you didnt sell it before the NICS went into effect, where any gun sold on a 4473 after the date, pretty much has to be, as if your found with it and it wasnt transfered into your name, it could be a problem if they want it to be.

Once you buy the gun from your dealer, it is yours. You can sell it to whomever you want to, or give it away to whomever you want to. It is only a sale or transfer from a FFL holder where the NICS applies. Once you own it, it's the same as owning a toaster or lawn mower. If your neighbor Joe Smith wants to buy your 1911, and is offering you a good price, you don't have to run Joe through the NICS check.

Quote:
Registration is when you have to report all of the above to the authorities by law.
You did this when you bought the gun at the FFL.

No, the FFL holder is required to keep the 4473 for 20 years or until he goes out of business. The fact you mentioned earlier of the agents photocopying 4473s is the same as them calling the FFL and asking for the information. They tend to only do this if they're researching a crime with the firearm.

Quote:
Registration is when you have to apply to your local/state government for permission to own a firearm in the first place.
Again, you did this when you bought the gun at the dealer. If you fail the instant check, you dont get the gun.

The NICS system is not "asking permission". The NICS call checks for crimes or other information on your record that would prohibit you from owning a firearm. If you are not a felon or otw legally unable to own a firearm, it doesn't deny you the possibility.
As to 'registration', the instant check only is used with your personal information and either "long gun" or "handgun". No information as to model or make of firearm you are buying is given to the NICS system.

Quote:
So how good is the '4473 registration' now?
Its still registration, whether you think it isnt or not. Your name is tied to the gun, by make, model, caliber, and serial number, regardless of what you do with it after you leave.

Think what you like, but I am not under penalty of law to keep the government up with the whereabouts of any firearms I purchase. There are some places (NYC) where you are required by law to do this.

Quote:
You can call it what you like, but it's not 'registration' (at least not in Texas).
What is it then, if they take your name, address, signature, SS # (if you put it down) the guns make, model, caliber and serial number? Sure sounds like the gun is registered to you at the moment you bought it. Then again, the word "is" is in registration and maybe the definition is different because of it and Texas's proximity to Arkansas.

Again, "Registration" is where you send your firearms make, model and caliber to your local presiding government office in charge of these things. "Registration" is where guns are tracked by force of law. "Registration" is "asking permission" ( i.e. "You forgot to dot the 'i' in paragraph 4.3. Your request to own a gun is denied." or "We're sorry you cannot afford the $200 per gun registration fee. Application denied." ).

Texas doesn't have any of this legal behavior.

Please do your research before spreading the FUD.

 

[AK103K]

You win, registration doesnt mean registration in Texas. I'll file that for future reference.

But just for the sake of the word and what it means everywhere else....

from Merriam-Webster's dictionary......

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/registering


Main Entry:
2register
Function:
verb
Inflected Form(s):
reg·is·tered; reg·is·ter·ing Listen to the pronunciation of registering \-st(ə-)riŋ\
Date:
14th century

transitive verb
1 a: to make or secure official entry of in a register b: to enroll formally especially as a voter or student c: to record automatically : indicate d: to make a record of : note
2: to make or adjust so as to correspond exactly
3: to secure special protection for (a piece of mail) by prepayment of a fee
4: to convey an impression of : express
5: achieve <registered an impressive victory>intransitive verb
1 a: to enroll one's name in a register <registered at the hotel>
b: to enroll one's name officially as a prerequisite for voting
c: to enroll formally as a student
2 a: to correspond exactly
b: to be in correct alignment or register
3: to make or convey an impression

"Registration" is "asking permission"

Not according to Webster above. Didnt see anyting about "permission" in the definition, or is this too some special word in Texas? Registering simply means that there is a record of whatever, including, but not limited to, a firearms transaction in a gun store in Texas, or anywhere else.

They tend to only do this if they're researching a crime with the firearm.

well, maybe this is another thing they dont do in Texas, but I've seen it done around here on more than a few occasions, it was done at all the stores in the area a few years back, and EVERY 4473 in the store was copied. ATF brought their own copiers along too.

Think what you like, but I am not under penalty of law to keep the government up with the whereabouts of any firearms I purchase.

I'm starting to think Texans are a little "thick". You can keep saying it, but its still not any different, all YOUR info is on the 4473 and available upon request at anytime to the agents of the ATF. Just to give you a "simple" example....my buddy bought a Streetsweeper shotgun before they were declared DD's. After they were, he got a letter from the ATF informing him that he had to register it as such, and if he no longer had it, direct them to where it was last known to be. Where do you suppose they got that info from..... hhmmmmm, I'll bet there were people in Texas that got the same letter, what do you think?

Texas doesn't have any of this legal behavior.

I'll bet the ATF and every FFL in Texas will disagree with you. If you buy a gun there, its in their records. There records are availabe to the ATF, and other law enforcement agencies at will.

Heres a simple question for you, if its not registration, then what is it?