Can a pump guy be as good as a semiauto guy?

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70extreme

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I just bought an 870. I have shot Benellis for the last 20 years.

I have taken my 870 out for skeet, sporting clays, and duck hunting. I have found that I am not near as good at hitting pairs in the gun games or multiple birds hunting. The margin in speed between the two guns is substantial.

Is there any hope with practice? Can a pump guy compete or am I wasting my time? I am debating on going back to the Benelli for hunting and games and converting my 870 to a home defense gun.
 
The answer, is no.

It is impossible. The pump will always be slower.

That said, I use a pump for gun games, I just dont win em. :)

If it gets down to the point where the shotgun stages are whats holding me back, then I will upgrade.
 
Based on simple physics and economy of motion, of course he can't. He can train to bring his pump-action skill close to a semi-auto, but it just is plain impossible for the very same person not to be faster with a device that requires MUCH less input to function. Considering the reduced recoil of a semi-auto, and the fact that it's a lot easier to train to speed up your trigger finger than your whole upper torso, I gotta give the edge to the semi-auto every time. I have a traditional semi-auto Mossberg 5500, and it knocks pheasants out of the sky like no other; part of that is the recoil reduction taken up by the gas and recoil spring system, allowing a quick follow-up shot. On my Saiga 12, the difference is even more pronounced. I have a Remington 870, too, but as hard as I try, it'll never be in the same league of speed.
 
I have seen, and shoot with a few, that can work their pump as fast for a second shot, but their success ratio on clays isn't as high - then again, one gent in particular really likes to try and show off his speed, even if he misses..............as long as he is safe and having fun, it doesn't matter.

If you are going to get into serious competition, then it DOES matter - the only time you'll see pumps at a serious sporting clays competition is when they have a special round for pumps only. For any game requiring two shots, there are better alternatives
 
Same answer. Semi-auto. Hunting can require fast follow up shots, which favor the semi-auto. Also, it's easier to come back down from recoil to a target, as opposed to recovering from recoil, racking the slide (causing more gun movement), and then reacquiring your target.
 
The pump, IMO, is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none gun. It can do a lot of things, to be sure, but there are other versions that do particular jobs better
 
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I shoot trap and skeet every now and then, and I use a pump gun. I know that I'll be able to run it as fast as a semi-auto. That being said, the last time I went shooting with it, I didn't feel like the pump action caused me any trouble. I shot just as good as some of the other guys out there, and they all had over/unders. I feel like its generally better to hit slowly, than to miss quickly.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
The limiting factor of the speed of a shotgun (pump vs.SA) is the speed of the shooter picking up the target.

Work on the coordination of working the pump, and the only limiting factor will be how fast your eyes/brain can pick up the target.

The "slower" speed of a pump shotgun will not come in to effect until you reach the level of the exhibition shooters like Tom Knapp, Tim Bradley, and Patrick Flannigan.

Comparing two different shooters is like apples and oranges. When my buddies and I shoot (informal) skeet; I am every bit as fast, or faster, with my 870 compared to them with their SAs. But the difference is I have been shooting flying game for 25 of my 34 years. They just recently got started maybe 10 years ago (they're upper 40s to mid 50s). Can I shoot my 870 as fast as I can shoot my SAs? Yes. (And faster than my 48AL.) Can I shoot my 870 faster than others with SA. I'd give it a 50-50 chance. Can I shoot my SAs faster than those exhibition shooters shoot a pump? Not a chance in Hades.

If you want to improve your speed with a pump, shoot nothing but a pump for several years. Practice on "informal" clays, where it's one at a time and concentrate on accuracy. Shoot a clay, shoot the largest piece of that clay, then shoot the next largest piece... until it hits the ground. This will do several things, all at the same time. It will help with accuracy (shooting decreasing sizes of targets). It will help with your swing (forcing you to stay on target after you shoot). It will help you to keep your head down. Through many rounds, the speed of working the action will come.

Speed comes from limiting unnecessary movement. IE- Picking your head up off the stock. Stopping the swing of the firearm. And dropping the buttstock from your shoulder. Those are the three biggest mistakes I see with shotgun shooting. And they effect your shooting ability regardless of what type of shotgun you shoot.

Wyman
 
The mechanical action of a pump shotgun can be worked faster than the delayed recoil or gas operation of a semi auto just like a revolver will fire faster than a semi auto. To do so however takes a lot of practice. Most shooters who don't invest the time in pump action practice the semi will be faster as it requires less manipulation. Most people will never invest the time and money to get that efficient with a pump so for quick back up shots a semi will get them faster 2nd rounds, an over under or side by side would be even faster than that.
 
while I agree that the simple mechanics of a pump make it slower, i find that when I shoot my pump guns I am much more methodical and "never" waste a shot...kinda goes to the old "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" addage. I'm no professional shooter by any means, but I have at times impressed myself and those around me with how fast I can cycle a few shots through a pump gun...i find that I am much more economical with my shots, especially when hunting, but then again...sometimes in the past I have emptied all 3 rounds at ducks/geese and cursed myself for not taking my time while watching birds well with my range laugh at me as they fly off
 
Working the action is one thing - with a lot of practice it can easily be done. However, staying the target path is another - the movement to work the slide will, for most folks, pull the gun off the target line - so while working the slide, they are also trying to reacquire the target - in games with two targets, especially fast moving ones like in Int'l skeet, sporting etc., that is a hindrance - if you're just shooting for grins and giggles - go have fun and run what ya brung..................but you don't see pumps on the podium of the Olympics............
 
For most people a semi-auto is going to be faster, especially compared to semiauto shotguns intentionally designed for a fast cyclic rate.
It is also easier to shoot as the offhand only has to help swing the firearm. With a pump it takes extra finesse to operate the pump without disturbing point of aim and swinging the firearm to follow moving targets.
The only movement required for a semi-auto is that which is necessary to get on target, while a pump requires significant coordinated movement between shots to do that and manually cycle.
The semi-auto action also absorbs some recoil, further requiring less skill to remain on target.


The primary benefit of a pump is versatility not competition.
It can reliably cycle the lightest and heaviest of loads in all temperature and environmental conditions.
From light target loads, to the lightest of handloads, to the heaviest allowable loads. It can cycle less lethal, or other objects designed to be launched from a shotgun. They can also be forced to cycle with grit and grim, dust etc (though it may cause excess wear and scratch or gouge internals) which can be a benefit in defensive scenarios.
The same manual operation cycles the gun each time.

Semiautos cannot cycle as wide of a payload, and require adjustment to cycle within a large range. Those that can cycle a large range without adjustment typically batter the gun even if not perceived or there is claims to the contrary when heavier loads are used.
Whether recoil or gas operated they operate within a narrow range of pressure for optimum performance, not cycling too hard or too soft. Changing loads requires adjusting the gas or recoil system to put operation back between the two extremes, or letting the gun cycle softer and less reliably or harder than ideal.
Changes in ammo should be done more cautiously.
But they also don't need the same versatility if someone is merely going to be using large quantities of the same load.
In competition with large quantities of the same exact load being fired under the exact same conditions no such versatility is needed.


For speed a pump can certainly be cycled fast, especially by the pros. But the movement in cycling still adds an extra complexity to aiming and swinging and will reduce accuracy on multiple fast moving targets for most people.
 
In the 1950's, I attended one of Herb Parson's exhibitions where he broke 7 hand-thrown clays with 7 shots before they hit the ground using his Winchester Model 12. After the show, a guy in the audience asked Herb why he didn't use a semi-auto. He responded, "Because I'd have to wait for the semi-auto to cycle."
 
At one time, pumps were the gun to shoot in skeet, in the 1930s to 1950s if I remember correctly. Obviously, that is not the case today as auto loaders or over/unders rule the roost.

It takes some extra skill with a pump, particularly if you used to shooting an auto or over/under. I started shooting skeet with a pump but now shoot an over/under. When I dabble with a pump, I forget to cycle the action. There just isn't any bang when I pull the trigger the second time!
 
I dunno. I shoot skeet with a Winchester 1300. I've broken 25. Can't do any better than that. I've also shot a Win. 1400, a Caesar Guerini O/U, a Beretta 391, a Rem. 1100, a Saiga-12, and probably some others I can't think of, and I don't really find it any easier or more difficult with any of them, other than to the extent I'm used to my own gun.

In my experience, by the time I've swung the gun onto the second target, it's ready to go. Keep working with that 870 and you'll get to the point where you don't notice yourself cycling the action; the gun's just ready when you are.

I haven't shot any 3-gun yet. That might be where you start to see a difference.
 
Good Morning

Pretty Awsome what Herb Parsons could do with a pump shotgun on that Utube video. But if you look off to the right hand side of the same video, you'll see Tom Knapp breaking 10 hand thrown clay targets in 2 seconds with a supposedly out of the box Benelli semi auto. For those who say a semi won't recycle fast enough for them, might be true for them, but it's plenty fast enough for me.

Ken
 
Today's technology auto-loaders are obviously faster than those built 60 years ago. I learned to wing shoot with an Ithaca model 37 pump in the 1950's. I once shot my cousin's Browning Auto-5 and I had a hard time getting used to the "delay" as it cycled. Not so today with my Benelli M1 Super 90.

I now much prefer my double trigger Marlin Model 90 O/U's for upland bird hunting.

For a long time many thought Parsons was "slam firing" his Model 12--holding the trigger back and as he pumped the gun. However I think it has been estabished by close examination of the videos of his feats that he was in fact pumping and pulling the trigger on each shot. He was an amazing shot with many different firearms. The 25 minute film, the "Showman Shooter" is still available. http://showmanshooter.com/
 
I've always felt the pump vs semiauto shotty was like the revolver vs semi-auto pistol debate. One is gonna go bang every single time without fail (unless you short stroke it), while the other will be more efficient, but rarely, will jam. In a gaming or hunting situation, the efficiency certainly outweighs the other consideration. For self defense? I wanna know it bangs every time.
 
But if you look off to the right hand side of the same video, you'll see Tom Knapp breaking 10 hand thrown clay targets in 2 seconds with a supposedly out of the box Benelli semi auto.
Click to expand...
Most ordinary shotgunners/hunters couldn't fire ten shots in two seconds into a hole in the ground, much less hit ten targets. It would be interesting to see how Herb and Tom would compare if they could have competed against each other with the same weapons. Be it Model 12's or Benelli's. They both are/were "Shotgun Supermen".
 
"Because I'd have to wait for the semi-auto to cycle."
Click to expand...

I've heard this said before, and I find it simply ridiculous. I don't believe that a person can cycle the action of a pump shotgun before an automatic cycles itself. An auto cycles in milliseconds. A pump can't beat that. I would love to see a side-by-side high speed video of a supposed faster-than-an-auto pump guy, and any automatic shotgun. My guess is the auto would be done cycling, bolt closed and ready to fire, before the pump guy even ejects the old shell.

However, most shooters can't accurately shoot fast enough to take advantage of the speed of the automatic. In my opinion, pumps are harder to shoot because working the action causes you to move the shotgun around some. You have to wait until you are done pumping before you can get the shotgun lined back up on the target. With the automatic you don't have to wait. Also, and I catch myself doing this, sometimes one is in such a hurry to pump the shotgun that your support arm starts flexing and pulling on the action before the shot. This can upset where the shotgun is pointed.

I agree that a pump is more fun to use.
 
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