Can anyone identify this revolver?

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D.Delozier

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I'm trying to find out who made this revolver, It has all the standard Italian proof marks on the frame, But they are on the left side of the frame instead of the right as normally found on these Italian guns. There is no makers name or logo anywhere on it there is also no caliber designation I have taken it completely apart and checked every nook and cranny,nothing! There is a serial # of 8073 on the bottom of the grip frame and also on the bottom front of the trigger guard and again on the bottom of the barrel lug where it meets the frame. On the bottom of the barrel under the loading lever there is written in one line "MADE IN ITALY BLACK POWDER ONLY" At the left rear of the frame just above the back of the trigger guard there are 4 letters ICAM ,all of the proofs and the 4 letters are visible in the photos. The revolver appears to be a copy of a Colt 2nd model Dragoon, It is fully engraved except for the barrel and loading lever and is in the plain unblued steel finish. It is a cased set with a walker type adjustable flask and a single cavity conical bullet mould in a light blue velvet and satin lined wood case. Can anyone identify this revolver? or lead me to someone how can?
 

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Hello, yes it looks like it si a reproduction of Colt 2nd model dragoon. Made in 1978 by the AD date code in the pic. As far as the manufacture I do not see any apparent manufacture codes that could tell this as the two proof marks do not denote manufacture as neither does the icam. Nice looking piece. Are you buying or selling? Craig
 
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That's one very nicely done revolver!
One fact that's relatively certain is that the Italian gunsmithing outfit that produced that revolver for export is on this list of "Gunsmiths in Italy 1945 - 1980":

http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/armieri.htm

Maybe the original importer knew who built your gun.
Maybe there's some old time Italians that recognize the initials or the work.
But to think that there's an American who can identify the work, initials or maker's marks of every gunsmith in Italy who was assembling and exporting cap & ball revolvers just might be asking for too much.
That's one of the very reasons why the Italian website that I've listed was developed by Mr. Edoardo Mori. Because so many records of Italian gun production are incomplete.
As the administrator of the Italian website, I've asked Mr. Mori questions about the DART gunsmithing outfit before. He had some scant and incomplete record of production. But his record he had for the outfit didn't even include the cap & ball revolvers that they did make, and which were either not recorded or simply lost to history.
I think that some smaller outfits bought the raw parts and completed building those guns for Italian exporters and/or American importers.
So when it can't even be reasonably determined if a piece was made by a major company or not, then how can it be determined which smaller gunsmithing outfit or individual could have finished this gun?
That only leaves us with some initials and a list of Italian gunsmiths, along with an uncompiled list of unknown individuals somewhere in the history of this world of those with only memories and without known written records of what they and others in Italy had produced, or how they went about placing maker's marks on their products. :)
 
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Well, the engraving was done before the proof, since the proof marks were stamped in unengraved areas, so it had to have been done in Italy. The signature is "CAM" or "ICAM", but that means nothing to me.

Very good coverage and not a bad job. I suspect an apprentice engraver (for a couple of reasons).

A very nice display piece.

Jim
 
Who really might know and have records is the proof house in Italy who stamped the gun. They must keep some kind of records of their testing, receipts and serial numbers for each proof year. Maybe an Italian researcher could contact them and try to match up the learned identities of Italian gunsmiths with the maker's marks on various mystery guns.
Another thought would be to contact the companies where the raw parts for these guns originated to research who they sold them too. Then through further research and interviews with others in the gun industry, a better picture can be drawn from all of the collective memories of elder persons who were personally aquainted with each others work and maker's marks.
But again, if that information exists it's somewhere in Italy and I don't know how many roadblocks or how costly it would be for someone to actually go there, travel around and try to do all of that research and legwork.
And that would be assuming that it's even possible to locate the information and to gain access to enough of it to solve some of these mysteries.
From an American perspective, it would be best left up to an Italian to do that kind of research even if they had to be paid to do it. :D
 
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The revolver belongs to a good friend of mine,I got him started shooting BP about 2 years ago, when his older brother found out he was into it he told him he had an old gun like the ones we shoot that he culd have if he wanted it. His brother got it in one of those blind auctions for a box full of stuff at one of those public storage places,paid 73.50 for the box,the box had well over 1000.00 worth of first class reloading equipment in it as well as this gun,And my friend is considering selling it.We have both fired this gun a few times on our shooting forays in my back 40,It's a good shooter to.Thats why I was trying to find out what I could about it ,to help try to figure some kind of realistic value for it.
 
A gun like that would be a good candidate to put up for auction on the Gunbroker gun auction site with a hidden reserve or a high opening bid price.
It's probably not going to be worth as much as one of the unfired Colt Commemorative Dragoons which can be priced as low as the $800 - $1000 range. But it could be worth in the $500 - $700 range depending on who ends up watching the auction who might really want it.
Anyone can register on Gunbroker to sell their guns. The seller may choose for the auction listing to last for a week, with a fairly high reserve price to test the waters. And if after several weeks to a month of listing it and relisting it with it set at the high opening or reserve price no bid meets it, then there's a chance that either the price is set too high, or an interested party hasn't discovered it yet, or that an interested party is waiting for the hidden reserve or opening bid amount to come down when it's subsequently relisted again.
So listing a gun for a Gunnroker auction is a bit of a chess match that requires a seller who feels strongly about the value of their gun to play a waiting game where they wait for the bidder with the most desire to come along and pay the highest price for it.
Yet the seller doesn't want to set the opening price so high that no one wants to even bid on it, or isn't allowed to even bid. A person can bid low in a hidden reserve auction, but in a regular auction a person cannot bid less than the opening price.
That's the reason why going through several relistings can be a good indication of where the bids are stopping at each time and how far below the hidden reserve price they are.
For instance, if the gun was listed with a hidden reserve price of $600, and the active bidding during each listing never exceeds more than $550. Then after a while, the seller could simply choose to switch from a reserve auction and change the listing to simply having an opening bid price of $550 to see if there would be any additional upward bidding once the watchers know that the gun is now definitely going to be sold for a minimum of $550 unless they bid higher.
So testing the waters is important when trying to sell a gun that potientially has a higher selling value than the owner realizes.
The values that I'm mentioning are just random and do not have any real correlation to reality, but rather represent very wishful thinking.
If the owner is willing to sell it for $500, then they could also just list it with an opening bid of $500 and then just let the auction bidding process take it's course right from the 1st listing.
The only problem with that method is that then the seller will never really know if the value of the gun would have been higher if there been a greater expectation of value from the beginning. It all depends on who happens to be looking at the auction during that listing period.
Some folks only visit Gunbroker on a random basis and not daily, or weekly or monthly.
When they feel like they want to look, they visit, and if they see something then they might become interested and start to bid.
That's the way that the internet auction process was designed to work, just like on eBay.
Offers can also be solicited by listing it for a higher than expected price in any classified ad in any forum including this one. Then simply see who makes the best offer.
The problem with that is there might not be enough folks interested in it for it to reach its maximum value for the owner. A reasonable offer might be received, but that may not really be the best price it could sell for.
In reality, no one is quite sure of any gun's maximum value. Everyone has their own opinion, a finite amount of interest in buying it and the money to spend to do so. That's why there's auctions along with good, bad, better and worse deals.
What impresses me about the gun is that it looks rare and unique.
And while it might not be one of kind, there's a distinct possibility that it could be.
That perks up people's interest. :)
 
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To the original poster - and to get this one off the back burner.

Has your mate decided if he wants to sell? PM me and if we can do a deal then I will buy. You do not have to worry about International shipping, that is now taken care of.

But let us stay realistic please. I have a 2nd Gen, gold engraved Walker on offer to me for $500 cased and unfired.

Aye

Tony
 
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Interesting.I have a .36 brass framed Remington ,of 70's vintage, with similar engraving,signed ''ICAM'' in tiny letters in the corner of the engraved panel,back by the blast shield.
 
ICAM Engraved Revolver

I may have stumbled across the meaning of the "ICAM" on engraved guns. ICAM stands for Integrated CAM with CNC machines. A graphic design is integrated through CAM software with a CNC plasma or laser engraving machine to engrave almost anything, including firearms. From the appearance of the engraving on the pictured revolver it is a laser or plasma engraving. I just won another of these engraved revolvers on Gun Broker that is marked with the ICAM. A search of the internet produced several firearms engravers using this technology.

This is one answer anyway.
 
Look under the Barrel, where the Loading Lever rests...so unlatch and lift up the Loading Lever to be able to see.


Often, the Manufacturer's name will be located there.
 
Hello,

I had a brass 1858 engraved with "icam" stamped on the frame. It was also stamped "PR" at the bottom of the grip and PR seems to be a manufacturer...... notably imported by FIE

Hope it helps


1858la11.jpg
 
This cased Dragoon is from Uberti. Unmarked with a four digit serial number. Case appears identical to yours.

texasdragoon2.jpg

This replica Tucker & Sherrard 2nd model Colt Dragoon was produced by Uberti in limited numbers in the late 70's and early 80's. Market mainly by Western Arms out of New Mexico I believe.
 
I'd be pretty surprised if that engraving was cut with any cnc machine judging by the photos. You have to consider the probable vintage of the pistol and where the technology would have been at the time it was built. Duplicating that engraving with today's cnc equipment would be a tall order, not to even mention the difficulties of producing it in the 70's or 80's. I'd go with Jim's original assessment on this one.
 
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