Can I make my first shot DA on this pistol?

[Hunter2011]

I have a Taurus PT709. It is a DA/SA pistol. This pistol when at rest, is in DA mode. But as soon as you rack the slide it is in SA mode. If a round did not go off, you can press the trigger again, then it will fire in DA mode. I know this pistol is safe to carry cocked and locked. But I would still prefer the first shot to be in DA mode. But as there is no decocker for this pistol, and no other way to chamber a round, without making it SA mode, it is impossible.

But I found a way. If I disassemble the pistol, and reassemble it with a round already chambered, this pistol is effectively going to fire in DA mode.
Do anyone see a problem with this? The only problem I can think of is that after assembly I cannot rack the slide a few times to make sure everything is functioning properly after assembling it. Secondly, does the firing pin have the same power under DA trigger pull as when it is fired in SA mode? IE does the firing pin spring get compressed the same amount, no matter whether the trigger is pulled in SA or DA mode?

I don't want to buy another pistol because I just love this little powerful pistol and I want to carry it as long as I live. But I would like to make the first shot DA because then I will feel confident to never activate the external safety. Then my first shot can be a bit faster as well, as I won't have to click the safety to fire position. Every millisecond count in SD I believe

 

[Comrade Mike]

*rescinded* I am not familiar with Taurus. No external hammer on this model.

The firing pin will strike just as hard in double or single action. Your method for preparing the gun for double action is dangerous IMO. All it takes is you forgetting there's a round in the chamber once.

 

[Hunter2011]

I will not forget about a round in the chamber. Well I hope not.
This pistol is striker fired, it does not have an external hammer

 

[Comrade Mike]

I will not forget about a round in the chamber. Well I hope not.
This pistol is striker fired, it does not have an external hammer

My mistake. I don't own or shoot Taurus pistols.

If it's a striker fired pistol With no decocker I'd say you're out of luck unfortunately unless you want to buy another gun that fits your needs. I cannot recommend your disassembly method as safe or a viable alternative.

 

[Miked7762]

Do anyone see a problem with this?

Perhaps the fact that the trigger must pulled to field strip the pistol could be a slight impediment to your plan.

 

[Hunter2011]

Perhaps the fact that the trigger must pulled to field strip the pistol could be a slight impediment to your plan.

Why?
If you strip it, you must anyway empty the chamber, even if you carry it the correct way in SA mode.

 

[Miked7762]

You're right, I misread what you wrote. I thought you were suggesting taking the slide off with the round loaded first. My mistake.

 

[Hunter2011]

No problem

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I think you're going around the world to get to the next block. Why not just learn to use the safety?

The part that seems to be really difficult with small (or ANY) gun that has a DA/SA option, is the DA/SA transition: different first and second trigger pulls are offputting for many folks. That difference can be overcome with training and familiarity, but if you can train to effectively deal with the different DA/SA trigger pulls, you could also train to work with a safety.

One review of the gun I found said the PT709 SA trigger is 6.12 pounds, while the DA trigger is 7.5 pounds. That's a significant difference (roughly 30% higher in DA mode.) Most folks don't handle that transition that well... Do you?

Having the same trigger pull with each shot is a good thing. Try it at the range, using your proposed method and using the gun the way the gun was designed to be used, and compare your results firing three-shot groups.

If you don't have a problem with the transition, you're good to go. As long as you stay very alert when you're making the weapon ready.

 

[Schwing]

I think you're going around the world to get to the next block. Why not just learn to use the safety?

.
I agree with this completely. There are whole threads and thousands of folks arguing about the merits of striker fired VS. hammer fired pistols. Like you, I just don't feel comfortable with an SA striker fired pistol on my hip so I carry mostly SA/DA pistols with de-cockers.

I don't think there is anything wrong with striker fired guns and I don't think they are unsafe, I just don't like them and don't trust myself with them so I don't carry them. I own several that go to the range regularly however.

My preferences are probably mostly due to the fact that I only owned hammer fired pistols for the first 40 years of so. Either you condition and train yourself to carry the one you have safely or you switch to something else. IMO, you are setting yourself up for an accident doing otherwise.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It's interesting that Tauras, itself, describes the pistol on its website as "single-action-only":

... Elegant in Blue and Stainless this small, single-action-only could be found under a cummerbund or a pair of bibs. It's what you have been asking for! ....

 

[RustyShackelford]

Am I missing something?.....

Are you saying you want to field strip/re-assemble your Taurus pistol while it is loaded?
Did you read the Taurus owner's manual?

This post sounds like a HoFer.

 

[tarosean]

Im seeing a Negligent Discharge in your future, assembling guns with a round chambered..

 

[Ed Ames]

Personally, I think the most valid options are:

1) Learn to use the SA/DA (not DA/SA) Taurus as designed, or

2) Sell it and get something you are more comfortble with.


There are plenty of DAO and DA/SA pistols on the market. Taurus went out of their way to create a SA/DA to give SA normal operation but the ability to revert to DA in the case of a light primer strike.

 

[Hunter2011]

Okay, then it is not such a good idea

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

I own and carry the same pistol. I also thought about ways to get it into DA mode for the first shot, but arrived at the conclusions of the others here that it is not safe and in fact goes against the design.

In truth, you can carry without the manual safety engaged if you want, and effectively have a small, oddly shaped glock. I decided to learn the use of the safety, and it is now completely instinctive to flick the safety off during my draw stroke. Definitely didn't cost me any microseconds or extra thought during my last IDPA match, but only because i trained it into second nature.

Spend some time learning the safety, and choose a point in your draw stroke where you will disengage it, then train that for a few thousand reps. Also, remember to practice the modified draw to retention and where you'll disengage the safety there.

Or forget the safety and leave it unlocked. I don't recommend that, but it is an option.

 

[Jim K]

OK, I am puzzled. I don't own one of those guns but reading about the gun and this thread, I wonder whyinheck there is a "DA" capability at all. As I understand it, you can't load the chamber, then go to DA mode by using the decocker, since there isn't any. And you can't go to the DA mode by lowering the hammer manually, since there is no hammer. The only way to get to the "DA" mode is to empty the chamber, drop the slide and pull the trigger.

So, the only purpose of the "DA" appears to be for a second strike capability. Otherwise, the gun is effectively an SA pistol, functionally the same as, say, the Colt Model 1903 pocket pistol. The "DA" appears to be a carryover from the Glock that they tried to copy and has no function whatsoever unless you have a dud round.

Is that OK? Sure. Just forget the idea that the gun is a DA anything and consider it a pure SA pistol with an added but seldom used feature.

Jim

 

[SSN Vet]

I have not fired a 709, but was under the impression the mechanism what the same as the Gen III Mil. Pro.

These are really SA striker fired pistols with a second strike capability.

When the slide is racked (the only way to chamber a round), the striker is cocked and pulling the trigger will (after a long and light take up) trip the sear and release the striker.

If you have a FTF, you can pull the trigger again for a second strike. In this circumstance, the striker is not cocked, so the long take up has resistance as it cocks the striker, and then at the end of the pull, it releases it. Because you are cocking and releasing the striker with a pull of the trigger, they are often described as SA/DA pistols (as opposed to DA/SA).

The only "transition" to DA is if you have a FTF, where the pistol gives you the opportunity for a second tap, instead of going straight into the TAP/RACK/BANG drill.

The safety blocks the trigger mechanism and the slide and does pass the California drop test and is sold in the Golden State. So you can, imo, carry with one in the pipe, the striker cocked and the manual safety on with confidence.

 

[MedWheeler]

Jim K writes:

So, the only purpose of the "DA" appears to be for a second strike capability.

Yep. Taurus did this to market to those who desire this feature. Several of their guns that are comparable to hybrid-DA/SA guns are marketed as having that (to many people) all-too-precious "second-strike" capability, but they're true DAOs or DA/SA guns. The TCP and the PT-22 come to mind.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The only "transition" to DA is if you have a FTF, where the pistol gives you the opportunity for a second tap, instead of going straight into the TAP/RACK/BANG drill.

The original poster was trying to artificially start from DA mode... it can be done -- and there can be a DA/SA transition if it IS done. There is a noticeably different weight to the trigger in each of those modes. It's that DIFFERENCE (and, perhaps, the distance the trigger must travel) that makes the DA/SA transitions a problem for some folks.

The gun was not intended to be routinely used in that manner, but does have the ability to do so. That doesn't mean that one SHOULD do that... Taurus calls the gun a single-action weapon.

 

[ATLDave]

But I would like to make the first shot DA because then I will feel confident to never activate the external safety. Then my first shot can be a bit faster as well, as I won't have to click the safety to fire position. Every millisecond count in SD I believe

If needing to turn off a safety added even a millisecond to time to first shot, then the majority of the best speed-shooting competitive shooters wouldn't use 1911-pattern guns.

I'm not familiar with the PT709, but if the safety is configured in any sensible way, it can be turned while the gun is being drawn. Taking a safety off of something like a 1911 adds not a single nanosecond.

 

[Miked7762]

I don't own one of those guns but reading about the gun and this thread, I wonder whyinheck there is a "DA" capability at all.

It's easy to understand if you follow the evolution of this family of guns. Originally, they were true double action only with no pre-cocking of the striker. A trigger bar pulled back the striker full travel and then released it. The next generations added a sear to catch the striker when the slide went through its range of travel. On these, the trigger bar still goes through its full travel like before, but instead of pulling back the striker the trigger bar travels freely until it encounters the sear. Once it reaches the sear it pushes it back, which in turn pivots the sear downward and releases the striker. But since the trigger bar arrangement hasn't changed it is still capable of actuating the striker in full double action mode.

Some of the models do have the capability of releasing the striker via the safety, which to me always sounds like a very bad idea. They rely on the firing pin block safety to keep the firing pin from hitting the primer of a loaded round.

It's that DIFFERENCE (and, perhaps, the distance the trigger must travel) that makes the DA/SA transitions a problem for some folks.

On this pistol you must do the transition anyway. It doesn't position the trigger back when in SA mode like most DA pistols do, so the first shot always has the long trigger pull no matter what.

 

[priler]

to understand the thinking behind the Taurus striker fired pistols and the evolution of their trigger systems,you must first realize who it was they were inspired by,...and for that,you need to go back in time to the mid 90s,into Germany,to a company called Walther.

unfortunately for everyone else and rightly so,Walther had several patents,which also involved the trigger,surrounding their then new striker fired DA pistol,the first of it's kind in the world.


at first it was the Taurus 24/7 DAO but that wasn't the trigger system they really wished for. it evolved into a SA/DA,exactly as Miked7762 described. eventually,it would evolve into the 24/7 Pro DS(a true TDA with decocker),THAT was the trigger system and manual of arms that they had wanted from the very beginning but couldn't(no doubt they remember what happened to S&W getting too close to Glock). ...and then they would add a safety blade to the trigger like a Glock and that's were we are now with the latest G2 models.

so the question is,why didn't Taurus proceed in their trigger evolution in the Slim709 as they did in their top model and stay with the SA/DA instead? ..probably because of cost and perhaps because of necessity in trying to keep the 709 as slim as possible as that is it's major selling point. they did add a safety blade on the trigger though,IIRC,originally there was a prototype simply called Slim that didn't have the blade.

 

[Hunter2011]

I have not fired a 709, but was under the impression the mechanism what the same as the Gen III Mil. Pro.

These are really SA striker fired pistols with a second strike capability.

When the slide is racked (the only way to chamber a round), the striker is cocked and pulling the trigger will (after a long and light take up) trip the sear and release the striker.

If you have a FTF, you can pull the trigger again for a second strike. In this circumstance, the striker is not cocked, so the long take up has resistance as it cocks the striker, and then at the end of the pull, it releases it. Because you are cocking and releasing the striker with a pull of the trigger, they are often described as SA/DA pistols (as opposed to DA/SA).

The only "transition" to DA is if you have a FTF, where the pistol gives you the opportunity for a second tap, instead of going straight into the TAP/RACK/BANG drill.

The safety blocks the trigger mechanism and the slide and does pass the California drop test and is sold in the Golden State. So you can, imo, carry with one in the pipe, the striker cocked and the manual safety on with confidence.

This is exactly the way it works.

Like others have said. The trigger pull travel distance remains the same, whether the trigger is in SA mode or DA mode. The only difference is that in SA mode, there are a lot of slack before you get any resistance.
I am not concerned about the transition from DA to SA. Training can solve that problem. I also feel that a AD, actually in this case, a ND, can only happen when you pull the trigger. So what does it matter if this pistol is carried in DA or SA mode? The end result is the same: Pull the trigger and it will go bang. Just a question. Why would this why of loading it, to be able to shoot in DA mode, be any more dangerous than carrying with one in the pipe in SA mode? In both cases it can only go boom if you squeeze the trigger? Right?

To add. I did have an accident with this pistol. I dropped it per mistake. It is the first time, and hopefully the last time, that it happened. I never dropped a firearm before. The gun was not loaded at the time, it was just after cleaning it. It is was dropped hard, without the safety engaged, and the sear did not let go. So yes, this pistol is for sure drop safe. My own practical test confirmed that

Despite it being totally safe to carry while cocked, I still want the first shot to be DA. I am not scared at all to carry it in SA mode, that is not the problem. If you have a revolver for SD and you must quickly shoot you have a much harder trigger pull than this pistol's DA trigger. So the difference in pull between SA and DA is not a problem to me at all. I am used to the trigger pull of revolvers. I bought snap caps so I will do a lot of practicing with the DA trigger.

I merely want to know if this can be done, without the firing pin touching the primer when the firing pin is at rest. I don't know how this pistol behaves when the firing pin is at rest. For example, is it still drop safe if the firing pin is at rest, etc.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Just a question. Why would this why of loading it, to be able to shoot in DA mode, be any more dangerous than carrying with one in the pipe in SA mode? In both cases it can only go boom if you squeeze the trigger? Right?

If it will only go off when you squeeze the trigger why are you concerned about carrying it DA without the safety engaged? Or with it engaged?

The answer to your question, above, is that you're handling the weapon in an non-standard way, using a technique that not a part of the manual of arms suggested by its designers. You're complicating a potentially dangerous process unnecessarily.

Despite it being totally safe to carry while cocked, I still want the first shot to be DA. I am not scared at all to carry it in SA mode...

You claim you're not scared of SA starts or SA carry, but you've offered no convincing arguments for your alternative method of carry/start -- except that it somehow makes you more comfortable... which to me seems like a different way of saying it's "less scary" to you to do it that way.

You're willing to train to overcome the difference between a first and second shot, but you're NOT willing to train to learn to release the safety (when the gun is in SA mode, as designed)as you clear the holster as is done by those who shoot the BHP, 1911, and other SA guns.

If the gun were a hammer-fired weapon, I'd say "go for it," as it would be a trivial issue; but it being a striker-fired gun complicates things unnecessarily, when you use a different approach.

As I said earlier, you seem intent upon going round the world to end up at an address in the next block.

How do you make your weapon ready if you fire a single shot and need to reholster? Go through the whole disassembly/re-assembly drill again? Or do you just flip the safety on?