Can loading the tube magazine on a Marlin 60 break one of the 4 rules?

[jlbraun]

I just bought a Marlin 60 ($79.99, ) to teach a young boy how to shoot. It has the 18rd tube mag that goes all the way to the end of the barrel.

Doesn't loading the magazine violate the rule (don't point the gun at something you're not willing to destroy) when you're loading it? Your hand can go in front of the muzzle.

Because I'm stressing safety, how do I address this if he asks?

Thanks!

 

[bioyatexas]

The model 60 has a feed port 6-8" down from the muzzle and your hand or his should not go over the muzzle ever. As long as the rifle is pointed up and away from anything you do not intend to shoot.
You drop the bullets in the opening provided, not the opening on the end.!

 

[rcmodel]

Are you saying it doesn't have a cartridge loading slot in the tube right in front of the stock forend?

Regardless, it should have a bolt hold-open.

Owners Manual: http://www.marlinfirearms.com/pdfs/manuals/MFC_Self_Load_RF_Tube.pdf

I would teach to lock the bolt open, lean the rifle away from the shooter, extract the inner mag tube until it stops, and insert cartridges until it was full.

That's the way it has been safely done for over 100 years now with tube-fed .22's.


rcmodel

 

[bioyatexas]

I attached a graphic above

 

[Regolith]

I've never actually owned a .22 that didn't have a tube mag.

And yes, its possible, as the previous posters have already pointed out.

 

[BobMcG]

I could be mistaken but I believe he's referring to the fact that the inner magazine tube follower gets pulled up above the end of the muzzle in order to fill the magazine. Then one's hand must be above the muzzle to push the tube back in and then twist it closed.


With the barrel pointing in a safe direction, operate the inner magazine follower from the "underside" at all times and you'll be OK.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

OT but $79.99? new?

 

[Hauptmann]

How are you going to explain that rule if you boy wants to try to shoot a black powder muzzle loader?

You're better off just teaching common sense and encouraging your boy to think on his feet instead of following someone's lead. Teach him to properly clear the weapon, and ensure that it remains clear before going near the muzzle.

 

[Fast Frank]

Yes, proper operation of the model 60 does in fact violate one of the four rules.

Sorry, but there's just no way around it.

I try to teach it like this:

"You are going to have to put your hand where this thing could hurt you, so make absolutely sure it is safe before you do that"

I then point out the bolt hold open, and explain how the rifle cannot fire when it is open.

Then, I watch. And I ask the question "Is it safe?" over and over until the student starts saying "See? it's safe!" just to shut me up.

So far, So good. None of my shooting students are missing any fingers. (Yet)

 

[JohnBT]

Like he said, stay underneath.

It's possible to twist it with your thumb and forefinger, keeping your hand behind the muzzle, and then pull it out with your thumb and forefinger keeping your hand and fingers below the line of the bore. You don't have to put your hand in front of the barrel. You'll be close to, but not physically in front of the hole in the end of the barrel.

Being safe is good.

John

 

[jlbraun]

It was $79 at a pawnshop used - the pawnshop had like 5 Marlin 60s to choose from. The barrel crown is good and the trigger breaks clean.

Yes, it does have the loading port.

Thanks all for your replies. We're going shooting tomorrow.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

What happened to RULE #1?

 

[Fast Frank]

Rule #1 states that all guns are always loaded UNLESS YOU YOURSELF JUST CLEARED THE WEAPON.

How does that interfere with locking the bolt open, checking the chamber, and loading the model 60?

 

[Sistema1927]

It's possible to twist it with your thumb and forefinger, keeping your hand behind the muzzle, and then pull it out with your thumb and forefinger keeping your hand and fingers below the line of the bore. You don't have to put your hand in front of the barrel. You'll be close to, but not physically in front of the hole in the end of the barrel.

That is exactly the way that I have been doing it for the past 43 years, beginning with my Winchester 1906. Works just great for any under magazine tube fed .22.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Thats why there are 4 rules, so that a violation of any 1 still does not result in a tragedy.

So go ahead and violate rule Four with your tube loaders, the other 3 rules will keep you safe.

It's when you violate them in groups that things turn ugly.....

 

[Fast Frank]

Rule four states:

Be sure of your target, and what is beyond it.

What does that have to do with loading a model 60?

I'm pretty sure that this thread is about rule TWO-"Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not prepared to destroy".

 

[rangerruck]

but a mod 60 will not fire , nor any tube fire, with a open tube, unless you still have 1 in the chamber, so make sure you teach them to check and clear
ALL weapons. So this is not a prolem, this is germaine to tube feeds of all kinds, only.

 

[rangerruck]

if you have the old style mod 60, then i am assuiming yours does not have the bolt hold open feature, so again, it must be manually checked and cleared.
or if you wanna, when you go to load up, pull the bolt back, and put a spent cartridge inf front of the bolt. or a pencil. or pen, or stick , or whatever, and close the bolt on it, and keep it there, until you are done reloading.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

FastFrank - Perhaps you were too quick on the trigger. Rule no. 1 states that you should always keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction. This applies to all firearms, loaded or not.

I don't care if the weapon was just cleared by 100 people, rule number 1 still applies, and for good reason.

 

[Fast Frank]

The Four Rules of Firearms Handling
by Jeff Cooper

Rule 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when you have a firearm in your hands and you have personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as you put it down, Rule 1 applies again.

Rule 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.

Rule 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

Rule 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

Who is Jeff Cooper and why should we listen to his version? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_(colonel)

 

[jlbraun]

This one does have a BHO feature.

 

[Fast Frank]

"This one does have a BHO feature."

Cool!

The correct way to load/reload that rifle is to:

1. Point the muzzle in a safe direction (UP), engage safety, open the bolt and lock/verify that the BHO has locked the bolt open.

2. Maintain safe direction of muzzle and look in to verify empty chamber.

3. Maintain safe direction of muzzle and open magazine.

4. Maintain safe direction of muzzle and fill magazine.

5. Maintain safe direction of muzzle and close magazine.

6. Point rifle down range.

7. Cycle action to feed round into chamber.

8. Take off "Safe". Rifle is now ready to fire.

Step one satisfies the first rule. You have personally cleared the rifle and it has not left your hands.

Rule two is marginally being violated by the act of handling the magazine tube, but it is being honored because we know that the rifle is clear and we are maintaining a safe direction at all times.

Rule three is good because we never touch the trigger during this process.

Rule four is good because the act of loading doesn't involve shooting. Hopefully when we finish loading rule four will be obeyed.

 

[chris in va]

Come on guys, how on earth would manufacturers be able to MAKE the guns?

Rule #1 is verified (a couple times), #2 is moot.

BTW even though the 60 I had was crap, it still amazed me I could load it using an arrow shaft.

 

[PercyShelley]

I we can never allow the muzzle to point at a human being we are not legally entitled and morally compelled to shoot, then several forms of concealed carry, most forms of concealed carry are categorically and egregiously unsafe.

I therefore interpret rule 2 as "Don't point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy." By "point" I mean hold the weapon with your hands and direct it.

Realistically; these are modern weapons. They don't go off on their own, even when dropped from a reasonable height. Without the contraction of a finger, or the intervention of debris against the trigger, they simply will not fire. If we aren't allowed to place our hands in front of the muzzle at all, the guns become difficult to clean, appraise, and in this case load.

There remains an astronomically small chance that a gun will discharge accidentally, and with fingers and lives on the line, it makes sense to clear the chamber so that there is no physical possibility of the gun discharging. Any objections to momentarily crossing the bore axis of a gun you have personally verified to have an unloaded chamber are, I think, preposterous, as such incidents are necessary for many routine activities.

Incidentally, I've often wondered the same thing about the stillborn HK G11. That looked like such a pain to load.

 

[Danny Creasy]

Excellent discussion.

I have been running rimfire matches at our shooitng club in Sheffield, Alabama for 17 years and I always increase the power level on my sensors when a tube repeater is on the line. They present a unique challenge to firearms safety.

Pics from yesterday's 50/50 Sporter Match courtesy of my long time shooting friend, Dwight Pilkilton.