can movie theatres legally do this?
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
And to you!
-Sam
Mousegun
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A lot of us go by "States rights" when it comes to carry in posted businesses.
It seems to me the state is too far removed from the actual place of business to be the determining factor.
If personal feelings disallow one to enter if the establishment is posted, the state law should almost not be a factor. That person should not enter even if the state law trumped the establishment's sign.
Think of it this way, does one step (as in over a border line) from a state that makes it a crime to one that makes it a crime if one refuses to leave change the mindset that easily? If so, then one may as well conceal and carry wherever one goes because ones principles are borderline weak to begin with.
Someone could also think, "how could I live with myself if something went down and a mere sign stopped me from protecting my loved ones"?
Also, it is easy to see that in a lot of situations, it may be difficult or near impossible to "just leave". EG: If you are with a large group and someone else drove and you had no public transportation to get you out of Dodge and you were with your wife (how many of them would fully accept that one). Now what do you do? I know there are some that may answer, go somewhere else and arrange to meet later --- but come on, really?
So, this really is a question that is a bear to answer and a shark to face.
It seems to me the state is too far removed from the actual place of business to be the determining factor.
If personal feelings disallow one to enter if the establishment is posted, the state law should almost not be a factor. That person should not enter even if the state law trumped the establishment's sign.
Think of it this way, does one step (as in over a border line) from a state that makes it a crime to one that makes it a crime if one refuses to leave change the mindset that easily? If so, then one may as well conceal and carry wherever one goes because ones principles are borderline weak to begin with.
Someone could also think, "how could I live with myself if something went down and a mere sign stopped me from protecting my loved ones"?
Also, it is easy to see that in a lot of situations, it may be difficult or near impossible to "just leave". EG: If you are with a large group and someone else drove and you had no public transportation to get you out of Dodge and you were with your wife (how many of them would fully accept that one). Now what do you do? I know there are some that may answer, go somewhere else and arrange to meet later --- but come on, really?
So, this really is a question that is a bear to answer and a shark to face.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
What? This thing that he has no knowledge about, or risk from, or responsibility for, or any interaction with in any way -- this antagonizes him? Maybe you're looking for another word. I don't think antagonize means what you think it means.
Good point, for sure. I may choose not to. But, generally, I don't know or care the political opinions of the owners of various places I may choose to patronize. This hypothetical establishment may be the only place convenient to me that carries some item I need, or I may have some very compelling reason to be there. That's a function of the "proselytizing" aspect I was referring to before. I may vote with my dollars so to speak (and generally I do support all such efforts!) -- or may not. But those things are outside the realm of the discussion here.
To me, and in my location, this establishment's "no guns" sign is just as relevant and important to me as would be an "Obama" sticker, or "Say no to the Casino" placard, or a "Greenpeace" flag. Matters of opinion and persuasion that carry no value according to the law. I may not like them, and may choose to avoid them. But any moral or ethical choice therein is between me and my conscience -- such as it is.
-Sam
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It boils down to a matrix of consequences.
The axises are:
1) "What are the risks I face if I'm caught with a gun?"
2) "What are the chances that I will be caught with the gun if I carry here?"
3) "What are the chances that a moment of need will arise?"
4) "What are the risks I face if a moment of need arises and I'm caught without the gun?"
Numbers 1 and 2 are variable but somewhat knowable and controllable.
Numbers 3 is that great unknowable variable. If we knew we would need the gun, we'd stay home!
Number 4 is the awful, overwhelming dire constant that drives us to go about our lives peaceably armed at all times.
Anything else -- including moral baggage about the rights of other people to not even unknowingly exist in certain proximity to my defensive sidearm -- is mere clutter that exists to rob us of our ability to act when we face No. 4.
-Sam
Anyone can disagree with the law all you want, but some states have laws allowing the posting of signs to prohibit concealed carry and you ARE in violation of the law by ignoring the signs. Some states may interpret this as simple trespassing because you on the property against the owner's wishes (armed) while others may make it a separate crime to ignore the signs and be armed where the property owner has prohibited doing so.
Civil rights laws make it illegal to post signs barring people of particular races and there are no such legal protection for gun owners so making this comparison is useless. Sorry. Work to change the laws you don't like. Beating your chest and proclaiming that they don't apply to you won't shield you from criminal charges if caught.
Civil rights laws make it illegal to post signs barring people of particular races and there are no such legal protection for gun owners so making this comparison is useless. Sorry. Work to change the laws you don't like. Beating your chest and proclaiming that they don't apply to you won't shield you from criminal charges if caught.
crasen
Member
As far as I am concerned carrying firearms in a companies building that is posted as no firearms allowed is disrespectful. I do not see why it matters wether it is a crime or wether the sign meets the states statute for an official sign. If you had a sign on your front door that says no smoking and someone walks in and lights up then would you care wether it is illegal or not, no you would feel disrespected. That being said if I see a business that is posted I will take my business elsewhere if I have another option. You vote with your wallets everyday.
Extremely Pro Gun
Member
I can tell you that #3 is a heck of allot more likely in a gun free zone. Why do so many people agree with existing anti-gun "laws" when these people so openly oppose new anti-gun legislation.
If you feel like you have the right to defend yourself should the need arise... NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE... by all means... protest discreetly.
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Extremely Pro Gun
Member
duplicate please delete
scoutsabout
Member
Washington State is one of the "they can kick you out" states... so I carry everywhere it is legal, every day, totally concealed, unless prevented by a metal detector.
I have a family to come home to, and there is no higher law than that. My wife does the same.
If it's private property and they ask me to leave, for any reason, I will leave.
Now, if it's public property... well... Seattle is in violation of State Law right now on that one... but I would still leave in any case. Better to take it up via official channels and lose someone their job than to push the issue and become the badguy on the spot.
Make a good attempt at staying familiar with the laws of your Country, State, County, and City.
Party on.
I have a family to come home to, and there is no higher law than that. My wife does the same.
If it's private property and they ask me to leave, for any reason, I will leave.
Now, if it's public property... well... Seattle is in violation of State Law right now on that one... but I would still leave in any case. Better to take it up via official channels and lose someone their job than to push the issue and become the badguy on the spot.
Make a good attempt at staying familiar with the laws of your Country, State, County, and City.
Party on.
evan price
Member
In Ohio, the signs are force of law for certain, enumerated in the law areas, such as anyplace with a "D" permit for serving alcohol for consumption (with a few exceptions, such as the owner of the establishment), schools (with the exception that a CHL may pickup or dropoff children as long as they do not leave the car), government offices, police stations, courthouses, areas of detention or confinement (jails, mental health facilities, etc), colleges, churches, daycares, etc and more. (O.R.C. 2923.126 )
Those places are a FELONY to carry a weapon.
Ohio also allows the owner of a business to post a conspicuous sign that advises that guns are not allowed on the premises. If you are found to be carrying and are asked to leave, and if you refuse in the presence of a sworn LEO, you can be arrested for criminal trespass (4th degree misdemeanor), unless the posted area is a parking lot or parking area, in which case the ONLY penalty is a possible civil suit filed by the business owner.
I personally tend to obey their wishes- they don't want legally armed citizens on their property, well, I don't want my hard-earned dollars in their cash register. However, in certain circumstances, there aren't many alternatives. Also, (O.R.C. 2923.126 [C]3) pretty clearly states that a "Sign..posted in a conspicuous location" is needed.
In Ohio, we passed a law banning smoking in businesses. Under that law businesses are required to post conspicuous signs which are clearly described, as to size, content, and location in the law. These signs are required to be on every door into the business. The way I see it, if their "No Guns" sign isn't as clearly conspicuous as the no-smoking signs, it isn't conspicuous enough for me.
A lot of businesses try to hide the signs so they don't look anti-gun. Or they get cheap and put up only one sign by one door. If the door I go in at has no sign, the property ain't posted. Malls tend to bury a "Code of Conduct" sign somewhere near the food court or on a pillar near a door, and these often have no-weapons provisions in them if you read the entire 4'x8' placard, if you even see it.
As I said, if it isn't as conspicuous as the no-smoking signs, it's not conspicuous enough for me. I'm not going to spend a half hour scrutinizing the signs, leaflets, credit card stickers, etc on a storefront looking for a half-hidden post-it note with "NO GUNS ALLOWED" in crayon stuck on the bottom of a windowframe.
Concealed DOES mean concealed, and I've been putting my big-boy pants on for quite a long while, and am willing to accept the consequences of having a gun versus needing a gun. I also tend to carry small and deep in these circumstances.
Real Mags, the Constitution does not give you the right to not be offended. Think about that.
Those places are a FELONY to carry a weapon.
Ohio also allows the owner of a business to post a conspicuous sign that advises that guns are not allowed on the premises. If you are found to be carrying and are asked to leave, and if you refuse in the presence of a sworn LEO, you can be arrested for criminal trespass (4th degree misdemeanor), unless the posted area is a parking lot or parking area, in which case the ONLY penalty is a possible civil suit filed by the business owner.
I personally tend to obey their wishes- they don't want legally armed citizens on their property, well, I don't want my hard-earned dollars in their cash register. However, in certain circumstances, there aren't many alternatives. Also, (O.R.C. 2923.126 [C]3) pretty clearly states that a "Sign..posted in a conspicuous location" is needed.
In Ohio, we passed a law banning smoking in businesses. Under that law businesses are required to post conspicuous signs which are clearly described, as to size, content, and location in the law. These signs are required to be on every door into the business. The way I see it, if their "No Guns" sign isn't as clearly conspicuous as the no-smoking signs, it isn't conspicuous enough for me.
A lot of businesses try to hide the signs so they don't look anti-gun. Or they get cheap and put up only one sign by one door. If the door I go in at has no sign, the property ain't posted. Malls tend to bury a "Code of Conduct" sign somewhere near the food court or on a pillar near a door, and these often have no-weapons provisions in them if you read the entire 4'x8' placard, if you even see it.
As I said, if it isn't as conspicuous as the no-smoking signs, it's not conspicuous enough for me. I'm not going to spend a half hour scrutinizing the signs, leaflets, credit card stickers, etc on a storefront looking for a half-hidden post-it note with "NO GUNS ALLOWED" in crayon stuck on the bottom of a windowframe.
Concealed DOES mean concealed, and I've been putting my big-boy pants on for quite a long while, and am willing to accept the consequences of having a gun versus needing a gun. I also tend to carry small and deep in these circumstances.
Real Mags, the Constitution does not give you the right to not be offended. Think about that.
fireflyfather
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- 807
Um, once again we get to re-hash property rights vs other rights. Property rights are not absolute. Just because I am on someone else's property doesn't give them the right to murder me in cold blood, for example. What matters here more is the relevant state laws, which, for the most part, DO give the property owner to ask you to come unarmed or leave. Depending on the state law, though, it may be a simple trespassing issue, or something much more.
In any case, there is a whole world of difference between someone's domicile (private property) and a publicly operating business located on private property. You have every right to say to someone that no blacks, jews, left-handers, amnesiacs, or Wynona Rider fans may enter your home. It's despicable (except for Rider fans), but you have that right. It's another thing entirely to say that as a business owner turning people away from your establishment. Most states DO give the business owner the right to turn away armed customers as a matter of policy, and they are free to ask you in all states (but in some they may not have the power of law behind them) but it is not an inviolate power.
Our country does have laws to protect civil rights. The right to keep and BEAR arms is a civil right. We can argue about whether there should be an anti-discrimination law that applies in this situation (state laws notwithstanding), and it would be an interesting debate, but PLEASE, enough with the "my property rights trump all your other rights" nonsense. Sure property owners are under lots of fire from the government (and big business!), but so are gun owners. Also, bear in mind that the "property rights" in question here are probably the rights of a corporation (how many independent operator movie theaters do you know of these days? I can count them on the fingers of one hand in my city of 3 million), and a large corporation at that. If you want to argue rights being trumped, how about the inalienable civil rights of a flesh-and blood human being vs the property rights of a multi-million dollar corporate movie chain run by a board of directors who don't even own a majority of the company's stock between them? I for one think an individual's rights should trump the rights of a fictitious "corporate body".
Having said all that, would I carry there? Hell no. Just asking for a headache if you are made, unless you have some hefty local/state laws on your side (or we can get better federal law/precedent on our side). One could wish, however.
ETA For Clarity: Most laws are against us. I hope that will change someday (soon). Until they do, we're screwed.
In any case, there is a whole world of difference between someone's domicile (private property) and a publicly operating business located on private property. You have every right to say to someone that no blacks, jews, left-handers, amnesiacs, or Wynona Rider fans may enter your home. It's despicable (except for Rider fans), but you have that right. It's another thing entirely to say that as a business owner turning people away from your establishment. Most states DO give the business owner the right to turn away armed customers as a matter of policy, and they are free to ask you in all states (but in some they may not have the power of law behind them) but it is not an inviolate power.
Our country does have laws to protect civil rights. The right to keep and BEAR arms is a civil right. We can argue about whether there should be an anti-discrimination law that applies in this situation (state laws notwithstanding), and it would be an interesting debate, but PLEASE, enough with the "my property rights trump all your other rights" nonsense. Sure property owners are under lots of fire from the government (and big business!), but so are gun owners. Also, bear in mind that the "property rights" in question here are probably the rights of a corporation (how many independent operator movie theaters do you know of these days? I can count them on the fingers of one hand in my city of 3 million), and a large corporation at that. If you want to argue rights being trumped, how about the inalienable civil rights of a flesh-and blood human being vs the property rights of a multi-million dollar corporate movie chain run by a board of directors who don't even own a majority of the company's stock between them? I for one think an individual's rights should trump the rights of a fictitious "corporate body".
Having said all that, would I carry there? Hell no. Just asking for a headache if you are made, unless you have some hefty local/state laws on your side (or we can get better federal law/precedent on our side). One could wish, however.
ETA For Clarity: Most laws are against us. I hope that will change someday (soon). Until they do, we're screwed.
In Idaho the no guns sign carries the force of law From the Idaho Attorney General's Website
So now that I have pointed out that in some states the sign does carry the weight of law you guys still want to carry on the premises against the law! That sure as hell doesn't sound like a law abiding gun owner to me!
In my state a business can post a no weapons sign but it carries no weight re law. The exceptions are bars, the post office, schools and any government entity which has as its function that of transacting business with the public.
Those exceptions aside, if one carries concealed, and the weapon is discovered, the most the business owner can do is ask the person to leave. Up to this point the person has broken no law. Further, if the person were to refuse to leave, then the only law he's guilty of is trespassing. I don't subscribe to the asinine convuluted interpretation of property owner's rights where my right to defend myself is concerned.
Concealed means concealed and I'll bloody well carry where I want unless the law prohibits it.
Those exceptions aside, if one carries concealed, and the weapon is discovered, the most the business owner can do is ask the person to leave. Up to this point the person has broken no law. Further, if the person were to refuse to leave, then the only law he's guilty of is trespassing. I don't subscribe to the asinine convuluted interpretation of property owner's rights where my right to defend myself is concerned.
Concealed means concealed and I'll bloody well carry where I want unless the law prohibits it.
No, the "no blacks" sign would not be "...violating the civil rights (afforded by the constitution)..." It would be violating state and/or federal statute law prohibiting discrimination by businesses on the basis of, among other things, race (but not on the basis of carrying a gun). Business can not violate your constitutional rights because the constitution constrains government, not private parties.wishin said:
Jorg said:
Then write your legislators, because it's not that way now. And there are all kinds of corporations. There's a good chance that your dentist or one of your doctors is doing business as a corporation. At least some of the small independent businesses in your community have probably been incorporated. Many years ago, the small tobacco shop I worked in while in college was incorporated, primarily so that the two brother who ran the business could easily give their kids an interest in the business by giving them some shares of stock. The dozen or so guys I teach shooting with are a non-profit corporation.fireflyfather said:
evan price
Member
Real Mags:
You keep pointing to Idaho's laws and waving your electronic arms and loudly lamenting people aren't following "The Law"...
I really don't give a **** about Idaho, because I live in Ohio and don't plan on travelling in Idaho anytime ever. And IF I did, I would research their laws first.
As far as the Constitution, it only guarantees that the Government shall not infringe what's listed, the rights guaranteed us by birth. Means absolutely NOTHING with regard to interactions between two individuals, such as Joe CCW, and "Amalgamated Movie Theatres & Container Freight, SA GmbH" since they are both individuals in the eyes of the law.
Seriously!
Like I said. I put on my big boy pants one leg at a time. Have been for a while now. I am aware of the consequences of the choices I make in my everyday life. Heck, I even try not to go more then ten MPH over posted speed limits anymore. I'm positively sedate compared to me, twenty years ago.
I've been known to make left turns where the sign clearly says, "No Left Turns". I've even once or twice crossed the street where there was no crosswalk...And let's not notice that I made a "U"-turn across the interstate in that little lane through the median with the sign that says "Emergency or Authorized Vehicles Only"!
Am I a lawbreaker? I guess so. But then, everybody who enjoys some of the more... acrobatic?... positions in the Kama Sutra may be committing a crime in some states.
And yes, the tag on the mattress IS legal to remove by the final purchaser, thank you very much.
When you are a Big Boy, some things are a little more complicated than black and white. That's why we have to use our noggins, and make choices.
You keep pointing to Idaho's laws and waving your electronic arms and loudly lamenting people aren't following "The Law"...
I really don't give a **** about Idaho, because I live in Ohio and don't plan on travelling in Idaho anytime ever. And IF I did, I would research their laws first.
As far as the Constitution, it only guarantees that the Government shall not infringe what's listed, the rights guaranteed us by birth. Means absolutely NOTHING with regard to interactions between two individuals, such as Joe CCW, and "Amalgamated Movie Theatres & Container Freight, SA GmbH" since they are both individuals in the eyes of the law.
Seriously!
Like I said. I put on my big boy pants one leg at a time. Have been for a while now. I am aware of the consequences of the choices I make in my everyday life. Heck, I even try not to go more then ten MPH over posted speed limits anymore. I'm positively sedate compared to me, twenty years ago.
I've been known to make left turns where the sign clearly says, "No Left Turns". I've even once or twice crossed the street where there was no crosswalk...And let's not notice that I made a "U"-turn across the interstate in that little lane through the median with the sign that says "Emergency or Authorized Vehicles Only"!
Am I a lawbreaker? I guess so. But then, everybody who enjoys some of the more... acrobatic?... positions in the Kama Sutra may be committing a crime in some states.
And yes, the tag on the mattress IS legal to remove by the final purchaser, thank you very much.
When you are a Big Boy, some things are a little more complicated than black and white. That's why we have to use our noggins, and make choices.
It is definitively not a violation of law to carry a concealed firearm into a movie theater, or a bar, or sporting event, or a variety of other places in the state of Idaho.
The only prohibited places that bear the force of law in Idaho are K-12 schools (without permission from the board or other notable exceptions), courthouses, or detention facilities. See statutory prohibitions here.
Law-abiding gun owners know the law; they don't wave their hands proclaiming what it is without a thorough understanding of same.
If asked to leave for carrying a firearm (or for loitering, or for being slack-jawed and ignorant, or wearing a blue shirt, or whatever), and you fail to do so, you're trespassing, pure and simple. The key is asked to leave and failing to do so - the gun has nothing to do with it.
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