Can the army make a off post soilder turn in his personaly owned firearm

[ffwise66]

hello i active duty military i feel my right to bare arms in being taken from me i have no history or thought of harm my self or others but i am marked as high risk been that way for a year now i don't care about that right now because i know that they are doing with my firearm is wrong about 6 to 7 mouths ago i was told to bring my side arm in to my company Armour where at the time i was told i could get it out whenever to go to ranges and that sort that is not the case i asked for it to go to the range they told me NO now where is my second amendment right . I been looking it up and i saw an news about NRA VRs Pentagon for this vary same thing now this stats that there is a law saying the army cant do this but i cant find the law its self i need info before i try to go any where with this. can anyone help... .
CAN MY COMMANDER MAKE ME TURN IN MY PERSONALY OWNED FIREARM AND KEEP IT FROM ME WHEN I CAN LEGALLY BUY AND I HAVE A CARRY PERMIT FOR IT ANY HELP PLEASE
info i found can any one else find me this legislative
http://www.guns.com/pentagon-vs-nra-battle-over-soldiers-at-risk-of-suicide.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Milita...gun-rights-law-raise-risk-of-soldier-suicides

 

[J_McLeod]

Id seen the excerpt from the 2011 NDAA about soldiers living off post and guns, and that would appear to say that your commander is wrong to make you turn it in. However the best answer you could get would from talking to your brigade or post legal office. They'll help you get it back a lot more than any answers you'd find here.

 

[Owen Sparks]

What if you have already sold it for cash?

Can they come and search your home if you live off base?

Can they search the homes of your parents, relitives and friends?

 

[hellmut]

Personal Weapons

I used to be the HHC Armorer for 2/75 Ranger Battalion. I know that it was "required" for personally owned weapons to be turned in to the arm's room and we would give the soldier a weapons card so they can check it out whenever they want, for the most part. I don't think many soldiers turned theirs in, nor do I recall anyone getting in trouble during inspections but every unit is different I suppose. I don't think they can keep your weapon unless you are in trouble or something like that. Always remember...the military has stricter rules for soldiers. I would go to JAG and talk with a military attorney. They will be able to help you. Sorry about your bad luck.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Question:

How does the military know that you own a personal firearm?

 

[USAF_Vet]

Your first mistake was asking this question AFTER turning it in. When I was on active duty, we could keep personal weapons in base housing but not barracks. Living off base, they were considered untouchable in most cases.

I think you got hosed, but there might be more to this story. You alluded to being considered a risk, and that changes a lot.

 

[Ron James]

There,s more here than we are seeing. Why are you considered " High Risk ", Suicide? danger to others? Mental? If you have been marked a danger to your self and others Your command has an obligation to protect you and others. I'm surprised they do not move you ( married or or not ) on post. No one can make a judgement of the army's action until they have all the facts which have not been forthcoming. People, stop giving advise ( in this case ) untill we know what is really going on, Remember Texas?

 

[mljdeckard]

I am going to ask the politically incorrect question. Why are you marked as 'high risk'? Did you do or say something that makes your commander think you aren't stable enough to keep a firearm?

You have all of the rights your CO thinks you can handle. Remember, living off-post is a PRIVILEGE in the military. Your CO can revoke it at any time and put you back in the barracks. You are there to protect democracy, not practice it.

I have had my own grumblings about this. When I go TDY to a base for some reason, I have to turn my carry gun in to the armorer. When I PSC'd to California, I didn't even take my guns. When I have live in semi on-post housing, I was told I would have to register my guns with the post PD. My little brother is cavalry at Ft. Bliss, TX, and he has had to learn the hard way that his guns off-post are nobody's business. He had one commander who was great and treated everyone like adults, and even went shooting with them on weekends. That guy got switched out for a Himmler clone who told everyone to turn in all privately owned weapons to the arms room, regardless of rank or status. And it wasn't hard to tell who owned them, because they had all been out shooting together.

You know what's harder than fighting City Hall? Fighting the post commander's office.

 

[Overkilll0084]

Talk to your post's legal providers. They get paid to answer questions like this.
I feel that he is on very thin legal ground, but I don't know much about military law. Most commanders are not lawyers, the good ones will consult with lawyers before implementing policies like this.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Could your father come get it? That might be an option especially if you have "sold" it to him.

 

[WBA]

A few years ago I was considered high risk by the Army because I like to skydive and own quite a few firearms. Weird how those are two things the military taught me.

 

[leadcounsel]

First, go talk to JAG - Legal Assitance or Trial Defense, depending on whether you are facing criminal action.

JAG is a free service for you.

I'd say that your personal property kept entirely OFF base is outside the jursidiction of the Command and Army. They have no more right to come and stay in your home or inspect it or order you to turn in your kitchen table as they do your guns. The 2011 National Defense Authorization prohibits the Army from collecting your gun information and serial numbers too (a move that some installations tried to begin in circa 2008- a Commander at my old installation as a matter of fact). It also prohibits private ownership and use of guns kept and used off base.

Depending on the situation, your lawyer can demand your guns be returned.

HOWEVER, YOU are Army property. YOU can be ordered on base (technically when you leave base every day you do so with permission/pass and the Army can revoke that permission). So while taking your off base guns is probably almost certainly an unlawful order without maybe a Court Order or something higher than a CDR, your CDR CAN order you to move onto base either temporarily or permanently (depending on the circumstances, your personal hardships, etc.)

GO SEE JAG!

 

[Nushif]

So, coming from the O side of the house, I do have to ask the question as well .... why are you considered high risk? By the time I find out one of my soldiers is "high risk" .... the PSG or 1SG has made that determination a long time ago and I'm just the signing authority.

The following statement while not really nice, or entirely correct does provide the gist of your position:

You have all of the rights your CO thinks you can handle. Remember, living off-post is a PRIVILEGE in the military. Your CO can revoke it at any time and put you back in the barracks.

While the CO type does have to abide by some basic rules which JAG will no doubt fill you in on when you go, which you should if you're concerned, the installation commander is truly the king of the castle, in his castle.

My best advice would be is to go talk to the JAG folks, if you're worried.

[edit]
I see ... JAG has already chimed in. 8)

 

[tombstonejim]

There was a directive sent out either DOD or Dept of the Army last year directing that installation commanders do just as described here for any soldier that appeared to instable or impared.

It was the direct result of an incident that took place here at Ft Huachuca.

A soldier who lived off poat an E6 I believe. Walked into a secure facility carring a weapon and demanded to see the Chaplain. As you would guess they detained him took the weapon and after some discussion among the chain of command sent him to his house supposedly confined to quarters. Of course the chaplian never saw him to ask why he wanted to see him and the chain of command did not follow up. For what ever reasons. I suspect a habitual trouble maker but do not know that.

A couple of days later same soldier shoots himself in his quarters.

No one had ever followed up on any part of his obvious strange behavior.

Hence came the directive directing such actions and also telling commanders to confiscate weapons from those deemed unstable. What constatutes unstable I do not know.

 

[drsfmd]

HOWEVER, YOU are Army property.

This. Your second amendment rights don't apply... you don't have any

 

[Byrd666]

Way back when, when I was in the Navy, all personal firearms had to be surrendered the the armorer on whatever command I was at for those living on campus. That being said, I had no problem retrieving my weapon when I wanted to go to the range or hunting or whatever. On the other hand, my buddy was informed on more than on occasion that since his physical state was as such, we are not authorized to let you posses a firearm of any sort. I read that as, you're suicidal due to your injuries and I'm gonna cover my butt. I know he took multiple trips to the Chief's office and on up to the C.O. but, I never heard the resolution due to being transferred.

I really wish I could help ya. Good luck

 

[Ronin6]

You can try JAG. But, in reality you are theirs until separation.

 

[Rmeju]

The ONLY thing you can do to help yourself is to go see JAG. If you can go do that, I wish you the best of luck. If you won't do that, then you're almost certainly not going to see your gun(s) any time soon.

I suspect that your commander didn't have any lawful authority to order your weapons turned over to him, unless (perhaps) they were located on-base, but of course I don't know that for certain. Since you have been deemed "high-risk," I seriously doubt that the Army administrators that have your gun locked up will let you have it voluntarily.

Go see your base's JAG office. Until you do, you're probably SOL.

 

[Hypnogator]

The ONLY thing you can do to help yourself is to go see JAG.

No, you can also make an IG complaint. Many times that will resolve the issue much more quickly than a JAG consultation.

 

[alsaqr]

The OP never came back.

 

[WBA]

Refer to AR 190-11 section4-5. The only way you may have a valid case for storing your firearm off post is if you live off post. If you live on post the regulation states that it is the commanders discretion to regulate privately owned weapons on the instillation. If you ever come back to this thread your best bet is to find the policy from the instillation commander of your post, and/or a policy letter by your company commander. Before you go to JAG or IG get the facts from theses supporting documents, you will have a much better chance of gaining a favorable outcome. So much of AR 190-11 is left to the commanders discretion I am afraid you will not do well with JAG or IG. Have you thought about using the open door policy? Your commander has a commander also, he or she may not know this is going on in one of his or her companies. If you go that route start at he lowest level and work your way up. Again make sure you have read and understand the applicable regulations, both AR and Post specific.

 

[J_McLeod]

Refer to AR 190-11 section4-5. The only way you may have a valid case for storing your firearm off post is if you live off post. If you live on post the regulation states that it is the commanders discretion to regulate privately owned weapons on the instillation. If you ever come back to this thread your best bet is to find the policy from the instillation commander of your post, and/or a policy letter by your company commander. Before you go to JAG or IG get the facts from theses supporting documents, you will have a much better chance of gaining a favorable outcome. So much of AR 190-11 is left to the commanders discretion I am afraid you will not do well with JAG or IG. Have you thought about using the open door policy? Your commander has a commander also, he or she may not know this is going on in one of his or her companies. If you go that route start at he lowest level and work your way up. Again make sure you have read and understand the applicable regulations, both AR and Post specific.

I think that part of AR 190-11 got superseded in the 2011 NDAA, referenced in the article in the OP.

It "prohibits the secretary of defense from issuing any requirement, or collecting or recording any information relating to the otherwise lawful acquisition, possession, ownership, carrying, or other use of a privately owned firearm, privately owned ammunition, or another privately owned weapon by a member of the Armed Forces or civilian employee of the Department of Defense on property not owned or operated by the DOD.”

 

[WBA]

J_McLeod you have a valid point but wouldn't AR190-11 still remain a valid on the instillation since it is a federal reservation?

 

[WBA]

I should add that I am making an assumption that he op is a junior enlisted solder based on his grammar and punctuation. That being the case he most likely lives on post in a barracks and was keeping the firearm with a buddy off post.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Can the army make a off post soilder turn in his personaly owned firearm (?)

Yes. Absolutely. No question about it.



The OP was not forthcoming about his situation...and there is a hidden underwater mass to the exposed iceberg in this story. I will bet money on it.

Possible mitigating circumstances that would cause his commander to require turn-in of privately owned weapons include (and are not limited to):

1. Domestic violence incident (to include any temporary restraining order that might have been issued by any court)

2. Drug or alcohol incident

3. Felony charges (for anything)

4. Suicidal ideation or suicide attempt

5. Mental health issues demonstrated or diagnosed (whether combat related or not)

6. Disciplinary issues involving pending UCMJ action

7. Revocation of off-post housing privileges due to a variety of performance or personal lifestyle problems

8. Reasonable belief in a conveyance of threat or potential for violence (to anyone) by the service member

Such a requirement for weapon turn-in (secured in the unit arms room) would normally require the Service Member to be ordered to reside on post (barracks, BEQ, BOQ). I have enforced this process on several Soldiers...and they ALL had SERIOUS issues that justified securing their arms. This disarming was sometimes ordered by local civilian judges as a condition for making bail.

The OP's commander is well within his legal rights to do so and would be remiss in failing to order such action if one of the above circumstances were involved. In fact, that leader would be severely punished by his superiors for failing to take mandatory and authorized command action. Some events trigger a required command response...actions that are not optional.

The provisions of the 2011 National Defense Authorization Act (enacted by Congress) forbid Big Brother registration and data collection concerning lawful ownership of personal firearms by folks authorized to live off base. Among other things, this Act precludes a local federal installation commander from superseding State Law concerning possession, ownership, registration, CCW, sales, etc. In other words, the commander's authority stops at the gate of a Federal Installation...until one of his/her troops becomes involved in a criminal activity or behavioral issue prejudicial to good order & discipline or becomes a danger to himself or others. At that point, the troop is lawfully reeled in and given a reality check...and the provisos of the NDAA are irrelevant. Apples and Oranges comparison.

Joe does not get a "pass" to act out his life in any fashion he chooses simply because he commutes to an off-post domicile. He is a Service-Member 24/7. He is accountable to his commander, subject to UCMJ control, and responsive to lawful orders every minute of every day. Military service ain't a "democracy".

OP: Your post comes across as full of righteous indignation but short on detail. Additionally, stream of consciousness venting on an internet forum (combined with poor writing) makes you sound somewhat less than credible. Calm down and try typing your thoughts in coherent sentences and in paragraph format.

If the commander has issued such an order, IT EXISTS IN WRITING, along with your FORMAL COUNSELING and your SWORN STATEMENT...documents comprising the commander's inquiry. You should have read, signed, and received copies of all that paperwork.

If you have a valid legal beef...go see a SJA attorney ("JAG"). If they can't (or won't) help you...seek out a civilian lawyer. It's a free country.

In the meantime, don't get yourself hemmed up for violation of lawful orders. What you "think" doesn't matter. I can assure you that your commander has the legal authority to give the orders he evidently has. You can dispute them after the fact, but you had best adhere to them with exactitude in the meantime...and until you get a chance to formally argue the point with legal representation present.

Good Luck...