Canadian folk singer killed by coyotes

[Mike J]

Maj Dad interesting you mentioned some of the places I have hunted in GA namely Merriwether & Talbot county. There are some big bodied (for Georgia) deer in Meriwether county.
As for the coyotes, they weren't even in Georgia when I was growing up. I have heard it rumored that someone brought them in because insurance companies were complaining about insurance claims due to motorists hitting deer. I don't know if that is what happened or they have just naturally expanded their range but they are here now. I haven't seen any on my property but if I do I will eliminate them as quckly as possible. I have small children.
I consider it very foolish to go into the woods without a gun. I carry a sidearm when I go hunting because I know the first thing one does with a rifle when doing anything that takes both hands is lean it against a tree. The rifle leaned against a tree 30 ft away is no good. She should have at least had pepper spray.
There was an elderly couple killed by feral dogs in Georgia a few months back. Apparently the wife went out walking her pet & they got her. When her husband went out later to look for her they got him.
The scary thing is so many people (like the peta folks) are never exposed to the realities of things & they think everything is like a Disney movie where lions & warthogs are friends.

 

[JT sport]

For another take on this: wildlife and music may not mix. The other day while at the local dog park a gal sat off to the side w/ an acoustic guitar and began singing. Several dogs approached with their back hair raised and a very menacing growls/barks. Their owners quickly stepped in.

It may very well be that the coyotes were antagonized by her actions.

 

[Oyeboten]

No 'Forensics' were disclosed.


Not saying there were none done, but, I wonder just what the supposedly conclusive and actual details are.

 

[Zoogster]

A couple years later my friend was walking that Malamute, now getting close to 150 lbs an they spotted 2 coyotes in a open field..he turned his dog loose on them, the smaller coyote ran an the bigger one charged his dog...they hit head on....dog won instantly...he said it was a great sight.

Seriously stupid. Letting something you care about fight with a predator, even one it can quickly defeat is a good way to infect it with diseases and parasites. Some of which can be transmitted to humans in the family later on.

Assuming you dog's rabies vaccine will be effective (I always question the ones they inhale, what if they sneeze most of it out and it doesn't take?) is also gambling with your life. By the time there is rabies symptoms, the diseases is almost always fatal, for animals and people.
However rabies is just one of many potential diseases and parasites. You are having a canine share blood with a wild dirty canine (something which is susceptible to and can harbor all of the same things).

 

[61chalk]

Zoogster......I take it you don't coon hunt with dogs? Dogs get bit by coons, an they
can carry things too.....there are also guys here who hunt fox an coyotes with dogs, an then there are the hunters that use dogs to hunt bear an cougar....an there are hunters that use there dogs to hunt wild boar....some of these dogs are wounded an sometimes killed.....we definetly have a different view of dogs.....I'll stick with mine.

 

[Ron Go]

My parents live in that area and the coyotes and coy dog populations have greatly increased. they have taken all the partridge, rabbits and deer and now the feeling is they are looking at humans as needed meat. The RCMP (police) received a 911 call from a girl that came across the 2 coyotes eating/attacking the girl. Luckily they were not far away and when they came they shot one coyote and I belive they retrieved it. Their official comment was the coyotes had no disease and were not hungry so they didn't have a good explanation.
Several news paper articles followed and one farmer complained about the large number of sheep he was losing - one that was killed and dragged off by a coyote weighed 160 pounds. His comment was if they can do that to a 160 lb sheep they can do that to a child or small adult. Of course they do hunt in numbers so I as a 6 foot male wouldn't want to be surrounded by them
So what do you do with the problem? There is no value in their fur but the hunters could take care of it if allowed. The problem is the anti-hunting groups - example Pamela Anderson's anti seal hunt when she has all her facts backwards.
Sad but we may have to wait for another person to be attacked before anything will happen.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

in the past when they kill a suspected animal they analyze stomach contents as well as look at size and conformation of bite marks . if its quick they can find victims dna around the muzzle.i've seen it done and rule out the dead animal as well as confirm. fairly important work since if its not the right critter they need to keep hunting

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Dead coyote likely involved in attack: Parks Canada

Updated: Mon Nov. 02 2009 13:11:48

CTV.ca News Staff

One of the coyotes believed to have mauled and killed a 19-year-old folk singer on a Cape Breton trail was neither hungry nor diseased, preliminary tests on the animal has revealed.

Parks Canada staff killed a coyote last Tuesday, a few hours after Toronto's Taylor Mitchell was mauled in Cape Breton Highlands National Park. Mitchell died later in a Halifax hospital.

The animal was taken for tests to the Atlantic Veterinary Centre, and officials say preliminary results suggest it was involved in the attack.

"There's no evidence of rabies or other disease or any other physical element of the animal that might have led to this attack," Chip Bird, a field unit superintendent with Parks Canada in Cape Breton told The Canadian Press.

The animal was a 14-kilogram female in "really healthy shape" and there was evidence it had food in its system, Bird said.

"This was not a hungry or starving animal," he said.

Experts have had a number of theories about why the two coyotes, animals that are generally afraid of humans, attacked the young woman.

Some initially suggested the animals were starving or diseased. Other theories say the animals were young, inexperienced and unafraid of people.

The search continues on the Skyline Trail, which is closed, and other surrounding trails for the second animal involved in the attack.

With files from The Canadian Press

 

[Oyeboten]

Huh...


The Coyote - a female...28 Kilogrammes...(Edit: I meant 28 Pounds, or, really, 31 Pounds...14 Kilos...sorry)


The size and weight of an smallish-average 'Whippet'.


Not in need of food...not rabid...


I dunno...


Hard to imagine...


Something is not right with this picture...

 

[kanook]

There is no value in their fur

There is value in their fur. I'm trying to get enough of my own to make a jacket for my wife or maybe some boot coverups.

And I believe the are bought and sold online as well. Don't know the regs on shipping from country to country though.

 

[SSN Vet]

Experts have had a number of theories about why the two coyotes, animals that are generally afraid of humans, attacked the young woman.

So much for the "experts"...

how about, because they're carnivores and predators and upon sizing up the girl, decided that she was not higher up on the pecking order than themselves.

Has humanity so disconnected itself from the natural order that we can't figure out what was once commonly know as the "law of the wild". The ironic thing is that the most disconnected are often people that proclaim themselves as the most in touch with nature.

Timothy Treadwell is the poster child for this disconnect. And if you watch the German film makers documentary Grizzly Man (which will leave you convinced that TT was psychotic), they have an interesting segment in which they interview the native Eskimo curator of an Alaskan museum of natural history, who says that from the Eskimo point of view, there is a distinct line separating the worlds of animals and humans and that Eskimos consider it disrespectful of the natural order when either animals or humans cross that line. He says that from the perspective of Eskimo culture, TT had clearly crossed the line.

TT payed dearly (eaten alive) for his "disrespect".

 

[Will_G]

Isn't 14 kilograms about 30 pounds (for those of us who don't speak metric)? I am having a hard time comprehending how this tragedy happened; perhaps the poor girl fell down and was then unable to defend herself. But it sure seems like this coyote did not have the fear of humans most people would have expected.

 

[61chalk]

It may of been a small female coyote...but remember there was at least 2...the second could of been a big 60 lb. male...my thought is they attacked from opposite sides, this attacked could of lasted a long time wearing the poor girl down until she was too tired to fight back an being injured from the bites, espicially if one latched onto a arm while the other kept biting from behind....probably for that Park the best thing would be to travel with someone an never be alone, no weapons allowed but wonder if a small axe or even a knife could be carried there....a guy at work brought up the idea of carring a taser of somekind, have heard they work on dogs...but can these be lawfully carried...? Just bring back the guns please.

 

[Lazybones]

My guess is that the poor girl made every mistake possible when dealing with a canine in predatary mode.

She may have freaked out and started running then took a submissive posture trying to protect herself once the attack began instead of fighting back with everything she had.

May she R. I . P

 

[Zoogster]

Zoogster......I take it you don't coon hunt with dogs? Dogs get bit by coons, an they
can carry things too.....there are also guys here who hunt fox an coyotes with dogs, an then there are the hunters that use dogs to hunt bear an cougar....an there are hunters that use there dogs to hunt wild boar....some of these dogs are wounded an sometimes killed.....we definetly have a different view of dogs.....I'll stick with mine.

Such a hunting dog is a tool. Tools break and tools get damaged. Tools are then replaced.
He was talking about what sounded a lot like just a family pet he was taking for a walk. People often treat such pets as members of the family.
Family pets are also in closer contact on average with thier owners. Where transmission of disease is more likely.

It was also a lone dog, and hunts like you mentioned are done with more than one animal for a reason. In fact coyotes often lure single dogs out with a female in heat or even just a coyote running away. This is a common way they lead larger pets out of suburbs or neighborhoods into an area they can comfortably kill and eat it without being disturbed.

They then attack them as a pack. A dog has one mouth, and no hands and feet. Meaning 2+ canines can always kill a lone one if they are persistent. They just keeping attacking it from behind tearing at its haunches while it focuses on the other. Eventually as the tendons in its rear legs are destroyed it cannot stand or pivot with its muscles. Meaning most of its available strength cannot be used to tear and wrestle even when it bites something. Then they can close for the kill on the weakened animal.
Three 40 pound animals can kill a 100+ pound animal easily that way. It is how pack animals often hunt larger animals like deer. They avoid the threat head on, circle around, and the ones behind the animal attack and then back away when the larger stronger animal turns to face them. From turning to face the attacker new attackers are placed behind the animal, and they attack. The game goes on until the prey is weakened and then they abandon caution.
The pack avoids most injury that way (which would prevent successful hunting in the future), and tear the lone animal down.
If they lone animal tries to run away then they all sprint after it tearing at its rear further weakening it until it turns to face them. They then start the game over again.

So letting your dog run off after a lone animal could place it in just such a game. Fortunately for the friend he mentioned in his story the coyote turned directly on the dog, rather than luring it into such a trap a mile into the brush.

 

[Readyrod]

So if you aren't allowed firearms in the parks how do you defend yourself in a situation like this? I've never taken much in the way of a weapon when backpacking but this story is definitely going to change that. I've already decided that I'm going to carry a gun where possible but there are places where I can't so what do you guys think are some good options?

 

[sonier]

i dont kill on sight coyotes, i see them a LOT around here they have there jobs. when we have problem coyotes walk on to our farm, we trap them. what happens is there is a bold leader coyote that teaches the pack to do these things, whether sneaking on a farm killing lambs chickens or attacking a human.
Trap the problem coyotes and 9/10 times your problems are gone, if you still have another problem with a coyote after trapping one, well trap the other this has always ended things for me.

On the issue of defending yourself a good SOLID oak hiking staff would be my choice. if i could i would have my ole faithful colt python.
this is a real sad story i dont blame the yotes, i blame the lawmakers. Right to defend yourself wouldve helped her, maybe she wouldve carried a gun maybe not but if she could it wouldve helped. i can say for nearly 99% she wouldve prolly lived.

 

[21bubba]

This thread has been going on for nearly two weeks and I still don't understand why it's in S&T. I'm sorry a young lady died, but are we going to next progress to bear, mountain lion,moose, wolf, and perhaps maybe shark attacks?

 

[sonier]

lets see,

bear attaaccks -pepper spray and noisy bells
cougar attacks---yell at the animal wave hands frequently, maybe loud noise and a stick of some sort
moose------ a good moose hunting tag and a good ole 300 win mag during huntin season and a freezer
shark attacks----------pffffft thats easy one! dont go swimming!!!!

my guess to why this is on S&T is because what could you have done if you were in her shoes. apparently this can happen, so like i said earlier, a walking staff off a very solid wood like oak. and pepper spray would deffinately helped

 

[Fred Fuller]

21bubba,

Try reading Post # 18 on the first page of the thread...

lpl

 

[Mike J]

I agree with Sonier a good oak stick & pepper spray would have probably helped a lot. So would have a good pistol if it had been allowed. It seems crazy to me to make it illegal for people to be armed in wilderness areas. I'm not sure which is worse the 2 legged threats or the 4 legged.

 

[21bubba]

To MR. Lapin: I did read it the first time. It is just my humble opinion that this topic has no business in this section. Apparently you believe it does.

We are aloud to have differences of opinion are we not?

 

[wolf_from_wv]

A really bright flashlight can deter an uncommitted dog after dark...

Once in a while an expressionless look with a very low growl works, but that doesn't get used much.

I often go hiking alone. I have heard something moving through the brush out of sight a couple times. One time I heard howling coming from up on the ridge above the road I was on...

Maybe my 'dog whisperer" personality will help with the domestic animals.

If that fails, there's 3-5 (7-8 round) magazines, a couple blades, a whistle, pepper spray, usually steel toe boots, and determination to get home to fall back on...

 

[MarineOne]

To 21bubba ....

This is the "Strategies and Tactics" forum, where we talk about real world examples that open our eyes to what could happen if you don't have a strategy or tactic to handle it. Hence this educates us and keeps us more aware.

Just like walking the streets in a big city, you need strategies and tactics in forests, parks, and undeveloped areas because nature, just like some badguy, will put you into being part of "natural selection" whether you wanted to be or not.
_______________________________________________________________________


Now I have heard some tidbits in the news about wolves and coyotes interbreeding in the Atlantic northeast. Are they sure the coyote killed was really involved, or could there be another animal?



Kris

 

[Zoogster]

Most animals are not dangerous because they are naturally afraid of people.
For that reason you almost never need to shoot one, and people don't need to be so ready to put a bullet in one. There are those occasions, but they are less frequent than the number of people ready to shoot immediately. I have seen larger predators many times in the wild many times and while it can be an uneasy situation, you rarely will ever need to harm one if you act appropriately.
There are animals that are inclined to naturally hunt and eat people at first chance, like a polar bear, but we don't have such things in the lower 48.
You just have to give most a healthy respect and not appear an easy target. Learn what to do if you runa cross one and how to avoid confrontations. Those tactics work 99% of the time.
Yet I get the strong impression many people would simply shoot them out of fear. It is almost no wonder they banned firearms in national parks for so long.

People are scary to an animal. They walk on two legs, looking 2-3 bigger than they are as a result, and presenting a very different requirement for attack. Both the haunches and the throat are out of reach initially, prime targets they go for in other animals.
Humans have not only a mouth, but have two hands, often carrying items which could be weapons, and as far as the animal knows you bite too. So you have at least 3 points of attack, and then you can kick too, adding 5 areas to watch out for.
Then on top of that people often make noise, get into noisy objects like vehicles.
Humans are scarier than almost anything else to an animal because they are so foreign and unique.

Little do they know humans are weaker than most other animals and the majority of them do not even have the tenacity of your average beast to defend itself.
(Of course they also don't know if they kill one of those humans a team will come hunt it down and kill it.)

They have to be taught that humans are not as scary as they appear before most become a danger.
This happens when people feed them, or even just hang around them. Like tourists visiting them, or someone naively feeding them.
They start to realize people really aren't all that strong or ferocious. That they are actually slower and less aware than almost any of thier natural prey.
When they start to understand human beings is when they become a threat.
When they realize that the loud person, making more noise than any animal walking through the forest and looking straight ahead is not a bold savage and fearless creature but instead a clueless, weak, and perhaps tasty creature.
At that point they realize humans very well might be a good alternative if they get hungry enough.


So the problem when these types of things occur is normally humans. For all we know this girl liked to feed the coyotes, or other people in the area feed them.
Human beings are such a foreign and scary thing that very few animals not familiar with them are willing to risk confronting one, much less eat one.
So the real question is probably who acclimated these healthy coyotes to human beings? Who taught them that a young woman walking in the forest is not dangerous? They are the problem.