Canister Damascus

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GEM

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I have to admit I like Forged in Fire. I don't know what knife professionals think of it. However, there is one technique, cannister Damascus which seems like a total pain in the rear and prone to failure.

Who came up with it? Is it to use scraps? What are the benefits, if any?
 
On the show it's:

1. Required in some cases by the rulemakers to make things more challenging.
2. Chosen as a technique when the hardenable steel that must be used per the challenge rules comes in small pieces and would be hard to forge weld together using another method.
3. Chosen as a technique by a competitor who wishes to try to stand out.

In a non-competitive situation it would be chosen:

1. To make use of desirable steel which comes in small pieces. For example, if one wanted to make a knife out of bits of meteorite or from harvested steel from old knives or other similar sources.
2. To create a desired pattern in the finished result. (Aesthetics)
 
Who came up with it?

One of the particle metallurgy guys. I'll have to look it up and let you know specifically who they worked with.



Is it to use scraps?

Heaven's no.

John's on target. Canister was developed to provide specific patterns or to incorporate a small quantity of some other forge-able material (all really about aesthetics).

FiF has created the very wrong impression that junk is worth forging when it is thrown in just to make forging more difficult for the competitors. Think about road kill being used on Food Network (or more accurately the evil done on Cut Throat Kitchen).

Smiths and makers may start working with scrap steel like leaf springs, but no one wants to work with junk. Considering the current availability of cutlery steel from a large number of suppliers it is always preferable to start with known steels with established heat treat tables.
 
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So, in real work, the materials in the canister are more specifically chosen for a purpose. They are not the clips off grandma's girdle and grandpa's false stainless teeth from Russia. But it's not the way to make a quality piece? Do commercial knife firms use the other styles, like sandwiches and tacos? Or are the knives from one type of metal? I get the idea of a sharp edge and flexible blade.
 
They are not the clips off grandma's girdle and grandpa's false stainless teeth from Russia. But it's not the way to make a quality piece?

GIGO

Do commercial knife firms use the other styles, like sandwiches and tacos?

Damascus is more expensive than monosteel or laminated steel and commercial knife companies use Damascus for the additional price that can be charged for a premium blade material. Before the explosion of blade materials, I put "steels" and replaced with materials since we see more than Fe alloys these days, the range of options were more limited just as in the days of the bag phone, VCR and Walkman communication/entertainment electronics were limited. Now we see the result in that explosion in tech. There are a lot of blade materials and many ways to work them. Some commercial "damascus" like Damasteel is mass produced, but most commercial damascus blade steel production is done by a few relatively small shops turning out specific patterns for other makers and manufacturers to use. Powder "damascus" by Damasteel is patented so they may be the only source of that.

As to who came up with canister, I asked Steve Schwarzer and he reminded me that Daryl Meier and he showed the first canister at Batson's Hammer In late '70s/early '80s. The origin is supposedly the year before when Gary Runyon from Allegheny Technology was trying to get nickel alloy powder to fuse with cable and Steve Schwarzer suggested putting it in a pipe and sealing it up to forge it. Since Steve and Daryl had been going though the arduous process of using EDM to cut out complex patterns and then mirror patterns of contrasting steel and fitting the puzzle pieces together to make specific images in steel it was natural for Steve to get some of the Allegheny nickle powder and try it. Around the same time Damasteel was being developed and patented in Sweden to make layered stainless for damascus from powder. Et voilà, Schwarzer is the father of canister as we think of it. Nice history here - https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/08/19/the-history-of-powder-metals-in-damascus-steel/
 
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But it's not the way to make a quality piece?
If you put all good steels in the canister you can make a good piece of steel to work with--but it's probably easier to just get a good piece of steel to start with than to deal with the hassle of the canister. And at the same time, you can eliminate the potential issues that can result from a bad forge weld.
Do commercial knife firms use the other styles, like sandwiches and tacos? Or are the knives from one type of metal? I get the idea of a sharp edge and flexible blade.
There are commercial firms who make laminated steel blades of various types. For example, it's not uncommon for good Japanese cutlery to be made up of one layer of hardenable steel that forms the cutting edge with another layer of softer steel that provides additional strength combined into a single-bevel blade. It's important to be able to recognize this kind of knife as sharpening it like a conventional two-bevel knife will put the softer steel on the edge.

If you have a very good steel, one that has good edge-holding, is tough and hard to the extent that is required by the intended application of the blade, then as long as you can afford it, it makes sense to make the whole blade out of that steel. If you want to minimize the amount of high-end steel used in a knife without sacrificing cutting/edge-holding/toughness performance, or if you want to use a steel for the cutting edge at a hardness level that makes it more brittle than is ideal, then going with a laminated design can provide some extra strength--some insurance against breakage. It won't keep the edge from chipping, but it can keep the blade from breaking.

Also, if the application of the resulting blade makes really high demands on the performance of the steel (generally hardness and edge-holding performance must be balanced against the ability to resist breakage) then a laminated steel might be a good choice because it lets you have both at once by combining the properties of both of the steels used in the laminate.

So, is it practical? Well, it CAN be. If you poke around, you can find some knives made of laminated steel where the two steels in the laminate have pretty similar properties. That's not really doing anything practical. And you can find laminated blades where the steel used for the edge really has enough toughness for the application--so there's no need to try to bolster it by adding layers of another type of steel. Obviously not so practical there either.

In addition, one can use differential tempering/hardening to achieve the same kind of benefits that are provided by laminated steels. So one might make a blade and leave the back relatively soft while the edge is very hard. Pretty much the same kind of an effect as you'd get from a laminated steel.

But I do think there are some applications where laminated steels make practical sense.

I feel like I should mention that I don't think this post is a very thorough treatment of the topic. There are other benefits of laminated steels (potentially easier sharpening) and other disadvantages too (delamination, galvanic corrosion), but maybe it's not misleading or overly simplistic. Also, it's worth noting that I have no experience or education in metallurgy or blade-making.
 
Forge welding done back in the day to join pieces such as forming the loop on shingle froe. Laminated steel was done only when required to make very valuable high carbon steels go further. You could not afford an axe head made entirely from high carbon steel two hundred years ago. You made the body of the axe from a mild steel or even wrought iron and forge welded in a piece of high carbon steel into the bit of the axe. There was even a moderately good size industry still existence into the early 1900's around forging in new high carbon steel bits into old worn axes that had been sharpened so much the high carbon steel was gone. Now today when you buy a good axe you are as likely to get all one steel as a two piece depending on who is making it since high carbon steel is no longer an expensive and rare commodity. My latest axe the entire 4 lbs head is 5160.

Canister Damascus did not really come into existence until modern times. It was not until the advent of powder metallurgy did canister Damascus really become viable and easier to do. With today's modern alloys and heat treating processes the only reason to laminate steels or make canister Damascus is because you can and because you like the looks. If you are after pure performance you are better off with a good modern alloy that has been proper shaped and heat treated.
 
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One other reason to laminate is using corrosion resistant outer steels to protect the hard carbon steel from corrosion.
Not worth the effort with all the coatings and treatments we have that are far easier to apply than forge welding two steels together.
 
Not worth the effort with all the coatings and treatments we have that are far easier to apply than forge welding two steels together.

A lot of people don't like coatings on blades. It is also a matter of aesthetics for some or simply the appeal of the idea. Cold Steel has made a lot of money with their "San Mai" blades appealing to those it appeals to.

As with all things the worth of the effort and the cost are usually controlled by the buyers.
 
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One other reason to laminate is using corrosion resistant outer steels to protect the hard carbon steel from corrosion.
Yes, I was going to mention that, but I wonder how commonly it's done as it seems to me that would set up an ideal situation for galvanic corrosion. I wish I could find more information on that topic.
Cold Steel has made a lot of money with their "San Mai" blades appealing to those it appeals to.
Cold Steel was one of the companies I was thinking of when I mentioned that some laminated steels blades have two steels with properties that just aren't very different. In my inexpert opinion, the San Mai formulations I am aware of don't use steels that are dissimilar enough to justify laminating them together.

I have a Cold Steel knife with a laminated blade, and it's kind of cool being able to see the line between the laminations on the edge of the blade, but I'm just not confident that the result is really practical.
 
galvanic corrosion

If the materials are forge welded together you won't get galvanic corrosion between steels. They're not dissimilar enough without a void and some sort of entrapped fluid to act as a medium...as long as a charge isn't applied. A clean solid forge weld keeps that from being an issue.

the San Mai formulations I am aware of don't use steels that are dissimilar

Lets be sure what we're referring to as "San Mai". Cold Steel is pretty much using softer high Cr outer steels with a hard carbon steel core (CS played an infinite game calling different steels and combinations different things so they could hide the fact they changed alloys for cost and availability) in their San Mai TM blades. In Japanese blades san mai was just the hard in the soft steel sandwich construction. You see the same thing done in other places in the world where valuable hardenable steel is backed up with milder less expensive steel all forged together. Heck, the "traditional" axe construction MCB was discussing could be thought of as something similar there materials have to bee able to forge weld together so the
layers have to be alloyable. By leaving no gaps and using alloyble different steels (or in the case of nickel, something itself alloyable with iron) you can weld the layers together.
 
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Lets be sure what we're referring to as "San Mai".
My understanding was that at least one of their San Mai constructions had an AUS8 core and 420J2 outer layers.
 
My latest axe the entire 4 lbs head is 5160.

Could you talk more about that, maybe in another thread? I've been a fan of big 5160 blades for over 20 years, since I discovered and grew to love Himalayan Imports khukuris.

John
 
As a rank, novice, amateur, beginner knife maker I would not attempt to make or use Damascus. ( did I Use enough adjectives?):D
1095, 5160, and N690 are my go to.
That said I was gifted a beautiful Damascus, Made by a top ranked knifemaker, from a friend I consider my brother.
 
My understanding was that at least one of their San Mai constructions had an AUS8 core and 420J2 outer layers.

I can see 420 outer since the stuff is commonly used where corrosion is an issue.

That's ridiculous. AUS8 is just a decent steel, not something like ZDP-189.

I would not be surprised that Cold Steel would use an AUS8 core, but I'm a bit cynical about mass market knife manufacturers since I had friends at the largest OEM blade makers that made knives for them and we've had too many discussions about CS and other knife companies they made blades for.
 
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Well, Jay screwed up his canister this week - master blade smith.
 
Well, Jay screwed up his canister this week - master blade smith.
No point in throwing stones since the object lesson is that the clock and unfamiliar conditions change how you normally work and the results you get.

As someone who has forged in different smiths' forges with all the time needed the idea of doing it against a clock is daunting.
 
Wasn't throwing stones, Jay was making fun of himself for screwing that up. He won even though his blade didn't cut well. The other guy made a too heavy sword. I have vast experience of making a screw driver from scratch once - haha. Actually pounded it on an anvil! I'm totally impressed by these guys.
 
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