Can't hit anything with my Pocket Positive

[trickshot]

I've decided to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and for this purpose I bought a Colt Pocket Positive with 2 ½" barrel that appears to be in excellent condition. I bought a couple boxes of S&W 32 Long cartridges and today I shot it for the first time. I am a very good shot using full size hand guns, but I'm having trouble being able to shoot accurate with this little pistol.

This is the first time I have ever shot such a small pistol, or a pistol without a rear sight; so I lined up the tip of the front sight in the groove on top of the gun and shot about a 1" group about 2 ½" low and 1" to the left. This was terrible, so I tried holding more of the front sight above the groove to raise the shots, but then shot too high and a larger group. I used up 24 Magtech wadcutter cartridges trying to figure out where to hold the sight to be able to hit the bullseye but I ended up with shots all over the target. Then I tried a few Winchester lead round nose cartridges and they shot a little higher and therefore closer to the bullseye. By that time I was very frustrated and quit. I was shooting at a distance of 20 feet.

Normally if I have a pistol that shoots low, I file down the front sight until it shoots where I aim. But I'm thinking maybe there is some trick I don't know about with shooting this little gun?

Also I consider a 1" group at 20 feet to be poor shooting, but I'm hoping that with more practice I can improve that.

I'm frustrated with this. Looks like I'm going to have to shoot a lot of ammo before I'll be able to hit a bullseye with this gun. Anybody here with experience shooting a Colt Pocket Positive?

 

[Otony]

No experience to add, I'm afraid, but if you decide to sell it, I will happily buy it.

I've always wanted one!

 

[RancidSumo]

1" group sounds fine to me. In a carry gun, it seems to me like it would be OK to shoot an inch or two low.

 

[trickshot]

I'm going to have to buy more ammo for this gun real soon, and I'm thinking of getting PCI brand 32 S&W Long RNFP. Has anyone used this? And is it accurate?

 

[pinkymingeo]

Look on the bright side. If you actually have to use the thing, it'll likely come as a complete surprise. You'll be scared spitless, and possibly confused. There'll be little or no light, and the sights will probably be useless. Your assailant will likely be within 10 feet of you. All in all, you'll be lucky not to shoot yourself in the foot. Who knows? Maybe that 2 1/2" low will save you a toe.

 

[FerFAL]

Seems you are asking for too much accuracy out of a gun that is exclusively intended for very close social interaction.

FerFAL

 

[trickshot]

So this is the best I should expect to do with this gun? Please excuse my ignorance, but I have never shot a pistol with this short a barrel before. I guess I'll just file down the front sight some, and not expect to get any better accuracy.

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually, if the revolver locks up tight the little Pocket Positives are very accurate. But you are looking at two issues, (1) accuracy - how tight of a group can it shoot, and (2) getting the point of impact to the point of aim.

These revolvers were originally sighted in at 20 yards, not 20 feet. At 20 feet I would expect hits to be low, as the trajectory would be going up. Pressing on the right side of the frame may cause shooting to the left while you pull the trigger. A little dry firing should reveal this if it is indeed happening.

Because the Pocket Positive is so light, any pressure on the frame, trigger or handle will move the front sight in some direction. Because of this light/small guns are much harder to shoot accurately then heavier ones with longer barrels. But practice, and you'll get there.

 

[jfh]

For good basic SD proficiency,

Shoot "Quad Fives"--that's my name for Old Fuff's recommended drill.

At five yards--
five shots,
in five seconds,
inside a 5" circle.

Repeat until you can do it reliably, time after time--but disregard the reloading drill; learn that separately and ignore its impact for practice.

With this cartridge, you probably don't have to worry about hand conditioning--but I would select your carry round and practice exclusively with that, or with "replica reloads."

Read up on "flash sight" pictures, and use that information to work your way away from the marksmanship sighting drills and skills.

Use "successive approximations" as your guiding principle for successfully boosting your proficiency. That is, start with being content with getting all the shots on a (8") paper plate at five yards. If you can't do it, move closer. If the group is smaller than five inches, then speed up your time until your group is bigger than five inches, then 'back up' your speed a notch, so to speak...

If you come from a marksmanship background, you have many new habits to learn that will be feel counterproductive to your ingrained (marksmanship) habits. It's important to learn these new skills and that they will override your other shooting habits should you ever have to shoot in self-defense. So, plan on practicing a lot. The end goal should NOT BE small groups, but time.

Stay at this kind of practice--quad fives--until you can reliably repeat it 90% of the time.

Jim H.

 

[Old Fuff]

Depending on its age (check the serial number out at www.proofhouse.com) a Pocket Positive can have a small sight picture with a rear "U" notch and a very thin front sight blade. Think of what was on the old 1911 .45 Pistol. When this is the case a flash sight picture in next to impossible. After learning the gun, point shooting might be necessary with targets out to around 7 yards. To use modern techniques you need modern sights.

 

[trickshot]

According to that web site my gun was made in 1913.
It does have a tiny rear "U" notch and a very thin front blade. The blade is so thin that it is a little difficult for me to see with my aging eyes. It definitely would be easier to shoot if the rear notch was wider and the front blade was wider. Did people used to modify the sights on these guns? Was this gun expected to be used with point shooting? I like this gun and it is so easy to hide in my pocket. I'm willing to learn new habits and techniques to be able to shoot this gun really well, and trying to figure out how.

 

[jfh]

Thanks for pointing out the sight design on that older revolver, Old Fuff. When I posted my first comments, I had not considered the issue of sight characteristics for "flash sighting."

Personally, I train for 'point shooting' using a laser on my j-frame. The trick is, of course, to learn the muscle memory and to practice enough to make combat accuracy reflexive.

One can even use 'APS' I suppose--and here is a link to a site about that technique.

Jim

 

[mnrivrat]

You don't have a target gun and that is part of why you need to lower your expectations.

As mentioned ,if you have a background in target shooting you may have to adjust your style of shooting as well as your concept of accuracy.

For SD many use point shooting techniques . It is about acquiring your target and getting off the shot to a degree of accuracy as to stop the threat . It is generaly accepted that this will be at rather close range and pinpoint accuracy is secondary to other factors.

As always, practice makes one better , but with the short barrels and poor sights, point shooting is not expected to have bullseye accuracy.

 

[Old Fuff]

Did people used to modify the sights on these guns?

Sure, that's one option.

Was this gun expected to be used with point shooting?

I have to speculate, but I believe that many would point at short range, aim at longer ones. Part of the problem is the revolvers light weight. Say you have a larger, heavier revolver that weighs 38 oz. It has a 3 pound (48 oz.) trigger pull. You have to apply the pressure (48 oz.) without disturbing the object (38 oz.) and your aim. Now keep the same trigger pull, but reduce the revolver's weight to 16 oz, that is what the Pocket Positive weighs. I'm sure you can see where this is going.

I like this gun and it is so easy to hide in my pocket.

Which is the reason they named it the "Pocket" Positive. They are neat, high quality, hand crafted revolvers.

I'm willing to learn new habits and techniques to be able to shoot this gun really well, and trying to figure out how.

There a many techniques that will work, including regular aimed fire. One of my books, writen during the late 1890's has pictures showing 12 yard groups with 4 out of 6 holes interlocked. They were fired with revolvers that were similar to what you have. But the owners practiced with them. Do a search using the key words, "point shooting" and see what you find. We have a number of members that employ this technique.

 

[VirgilCaine]

This is the first time I have ever shot such a small pistol, or a pistol without a rear sight; so I lined up the tip of the front sight in the groove on top of the gun and shot about a 1" group about 2 ½" low and 1" to the left.

There's one critical piece of information you left out here: How far away were you?

 

[Old Fuff]

First post says 20 feet....

 

[Lariatbob]

If you actually have to use the thing, it'll likely come as a complete surprise. You'll be scared spitless, and possibly confused. There'll be little or no light, and the sights will probably be useless. Your assailant will likely be within 10 feet of you.

Remember the reason you are carrying. It's not a range gun. As long as you can shoot a torso sized pattern. "minutes of man"

 

[Old Fuff]

Remember the reason you are carrying. It's not a range gun. As long as you can shoot a torso sized pattern. "minutes of man"

Occasionally you read or otherwise learn of incidents where an individual has absorbed a substantial number of large bore/high performance bullets and lived to tell the story, where by all accounts he shouldn’t have. A close examination of the circumstances reveals that while the hits were many, none struck in a place that would cause instant disability.

The legal use of deadly force requires that a lethal attack be under way, either against the responder or some other innocent person. Obviously the attacker starts with an advantage. The responder’s survival often depends on how quickly they can make a meaningful hit. Precise shooting will usually be a more dependable technique that “minute of man” hits. It will also reduce the number of misses flying around the neighborhood, for which the responder must take full responsibility.

While large capacity magazines have increased the number of spray-and-pray shootings, the rules of engagement haven’t changed. Over a long lifetime I have known a small number of men who’s occupation made them into professional gunfighters. Some of them achieved legendary reputations. While most advocated different methods, weapons and techniques; all had one common characteristic. They all believed in precise bullet placement, and were skilled marksman.

 

[rcmodel]

1" groups at 20' with a snubby ain't all that bad!

Methinks you are expecting way too much!

rcmodel

 

[colt1903]

My accuracy improved when I did two things: 1. Ordered in a supply of Magtech 98 grain semi-jacketed hollow-points and 2. Used the pad of my trigger finger nearer the tip than the joint. Here's 40 rounds of the Magtech at 21 feet. That's about as much as I think I can get from this revolver.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

This is the first time I have ever shot such a small pistol, or a pistol without a rear sight; so I lined up the tip of the front sight in the groove on top of the gun ...

That groove is the rear sight, as it is with any fixed-sight revolver. Because the revolver is so small, there is not much room to machine a deeper or wider groove - as you will find on fixed-sight service revolvers - either. With the accompanying small front sight, the little grips and light weight of the revolver, an inch grouping at 20 feet in slow fire is really not bad. Within reason, big guns are always easier to shoot than little ones.

Instead, why not set up a target at ~5 yards and fire quickly double-action, something like OF's drill. For additional help with sighting, try using a "silhouette point"* - superimposing the revolver's cylinder over the target - or painting the front sight a visible color with nail polish or model paint. This is more in line with the revolver's intended use anyway, and is not irreversible, unlike filing the sight.

*See Jim Cirillo's Guns, Bullets and Gunfights.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think you are doing just fine.
There are any number of internet experts who think they are doing very well to shoot 1" groups at 7 yards with full size service pistols.

Reasonably good hits in reasonably fast time are more important in a concealment weapon, as said above. Tim Mullin said of his trials with an assortment of old weapons that a little white paint on the front sight was a big help. Better sights could be installed, but would be very expensive.

I am torn about which load to use. I think a .32 needs penetration more than it needs expansion (I have shifted from Silvertips to FMJ for .32 ACP.) but .32 S&W Long is about the only caliber out there that has target wadcutters loaded hotter than roundnose. (That to run the automatics popular in ISU target shooting.)

 

[Walkalong]

Practice, just practice.

I bought a S&W .32 Long and my first attempts were pitiful. I consider myself a pretty fair pistol shot, but I could not hit pins at 10 yards very proficiently my first time out. It was smaller than any revolver I was used to shooting and as Old Fluff said, any little hand movement and you are way off. I am much better now, although I suspect I will never shoot it as well as other bigger pistols, with sights I can see better.

Also I consider a 1" group at 20 feet to be poor shooting,

Most would disagree.

 

[bigjohnson]

What ever you do, DON'T file down the front sight. Those little Pocket Positives are very much in demand by collectors, and filing down the front sight will be the same as throwing money down the toilet. Learn to shoot the gun the way it is, and don't ruin a good collectors' piece.

 

[22-rimfire]

I had an as-new one made in 1908 which I bought at a show on a whim. Nice little gun. Decided it was not within the type of guns I wanted to accumulate and traded it on a Diamondback.

If you intend to shoot this one and carry it, I'd practice a bunch more before I made up my mind. One-inch groups is not bad. Frankly, I'd keep it as it is and buy a Smith 642 for pocket carry and practice with it.