Cap and Ball for cowboy action
- Thread starter mudriver
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dprice3844444
member
ruger old army.period
Except they aren't period.
Fingers McGee
Member
If you can find them - good luck there - a pair of Navy Arms Frontiersman .36s. Second choice is a pair of Uberti 1861 Navies. Some of the Piettas are pretty nice out of the box - The JB Hickok Navies come to mind. Whatever you choose, if they are Colt pattern, run them through Pettifogger's tuning process & change the hand springs to coils & plunger. Treso cones and #10 Remingtons will improve the reliability of just about any C&B.
Jim Watson
Member
From what I have seen, C&B in CAS is not a cheap way to get started, it is an avocation for the truly dedicated. As long as you don't put food in your cylinder.
BCRider
Member
I started out in CAS with black powder. A pair of Uberti '58 Remingtons. Later I added some '73 Pietta cartridge guns. But I still bring out and shoot the Remingtons on the nicer days. I found that the rain and humidity did cause a few more misfires so I finally decided to shoot the BP guns on the days when I wasn't the one running the show and when it was nice out.
I've since added a couple of Colt replicas of older vintage which I'll be using as a pair as well. An 1851 and an 1860.
As noted the Ruger Old Armys may well be a super gun but they are not period correct. For some of us this means something. You'll need to make up your own mind on that count.
C&B more expensive? I'm not sure about that Jim. Pietta clones are on sale at Cabela's on a frequent basis. And the guys here on the forum seem to think they are great value and decently reliable. And the caps and ball are not that pricey either. The powder may work out to be more since you use more BP per shot than what is typical for smokeless. But that's a small thing on the grand scale. So I can't see it as fair to say shooting C&B is more expensive. In the end I'd call it a wash. Of course there's the cost of buying the guns. But since when does anyone around here stop to consider THAT expense?
Frankly, I say that if you enjoy BP guns then GO FOR IT! It's great fun to fill the air with stagnant great clouds of white smoke on still days and watch everyone gag and head for clear air....
Keep in mind that to be consistent within the rules that when shooting Frontier with the C&B guns you're supposed to also shoot BP or one of the subs in the rifle and shotgun shells as well. Duelist had posted links to how he reloads shotgun casings super easily with next to no tools. See if you can dig up his videos off You Tube on this topic. And for the rifle if you already reload the trick setup seems to be to just shoot Pyrodex powder or 777 powder as it's compatible with the smokeless lube on the cast bullets. Although I've talked with some locally that load honest BP cartridges using the regular "as supplied" smokess lube without any cleaning issues later. But that may only the case with specific lubes used by specific companies. According to the those that know if the lube is petroleum grease and wax based it can turn the fouling to a nasty sticky tar like mess. Going with one of the BP subs gets away from that trouble. The other option is to boil the lube out of the bullets and replace it with your own lube mixture of Crisco and beeswax or rendered meat fat mixed with some beeswax. You want the stuff that turns quite solid.
If you're in a club that shoots monthly meets where things are so stringent likely they'd let you shoot smokless rifle and shotgun rounds with the C&B pistols. I know that my group doesn't make a big deal out of it.
I've since added a couple of Colt replicas of older vintage which I'll be using as a pair as well. An 1851 and an 1860.
As noted the Ruger Old Armys may well be a super gun but they are not period correct. For some of us this means something. You'll need to make up your own mind on that count.
C&B more expensive? I'm not sure about that Jim. Pietta clones are on sale at Cabela's on a frequent basis. And the guys here on the forum seem to think they are great value and decently reliable. And the caps and ball are not that pricey either. The powder may work out to be more since you use more BP per shot than what is typical for smokeless. But that's a small thing on the grand scale. So I can't see it as fair to say shooting C&B is more expensive. In the end I'd call it a wash. Of course there's the cost of buying the guns. But since when does anyone around here stop to consider THAT expense?
Frankly, I say that if you enjoy BP guns then GO FOR IT! It's great fun to fill the air with stagnant great clouds of white smoke on still days and watch everyone gag and head for clear air....
Keep in mind that to be consistent within the rules that when shooting Frontier with the C&B guns you're supposed to also shoot BP or one of the subs in the rifle and shotgun shells as well. Duelist had posted links to how he reloads shotgun casings super easily with next to no tools. See if you can dig up his videos off You Tube on this topic. And for the rifle if you already reload the trick setup seems to be to just shoot Pyrodex powder or 777 powder as it's compatible with the smokeless lube on the cast bullets. Although I've talked with some locally that load honest BP cartridges using the regular "as supplied" smokess lube without any cleaning issues later. But that may only the case with specific lubes used by specific companies. According to the those that know if the lube is petroleum grease and wax based it can turn the fouling to a nasty sticky tar like mess. Going with one of the BP subs gets away from that trouble. The other option is to boil the lube out of the bullets and replace it with your own lube mixture of Crisco and beeswax or rendered meat fat mixed with some beeswax. You want the stuff that turns quite solid.
If you're in a club that shoots monthly meets where things are so stringent likely they'd let you shoot smokless rifle and shotgun rounds with the C&B pistols. I know that my group doesn't make a big deal out of it.
The expense part of the equation is going to come in when eventually you look around and realize that ALL the smokeless guns you "used" to shoot, have been replaced with guns that shoot REAL gunpowder. Of course you could finance the change-over by selling off those unused smokeless guns, but WHO would do that??
J-Bar
Member
Ruger Old Armies are used by most of the top CAS competitors because they tend to have fewer mechanical problems. If you choose ROAs for CAS, be sure to get the fixed sight models because the older adjustable sighted models cannot be used in Frontiersman category.
I use both ROAs and Uberti London Model 1851 Navy revolvers about equally in competition. I presently hold the speed stage record at one club and used the Uberti 1851s to set it, so it is possible to get good results with them. The ROAs are ready to go out of the box, pretty much. I spent a winter tinkering and tuning the 1851s to make them reliable enough for local and state level competition. I am not a gunsmith. A person who has average workshop ability can do what I did, but it takes some time. You would have to do the same with any of the historically correct reproductions, because I have never seen any of them work flawlessly through a 5-stage match without any tuning whatsoever. The flat hand springs and trigger/bolt springs break pretty frequently, and factory nipples are crap.
I use both ROAs and Uberti London Model 1851 Navy revolvers about equally in competition. I presently hold the speed stage record at one club and used the Uberti 1851s to set it, so it is possible to get good results with them. The ROAs are ready to go out of the box, pretty much. I spent a winter tinkering and tuning the 1851s to make them reliable enough for local and state level competition. I am not a gunsmith. A person who has average workshop ability can do what I did, but it takes some time. You would have to do the same with any of the historically correct reproductions, because I have never seen any of them work flawlessly through a 5-stage match without any tuning whatsoever. The flat hand springs and trigger/bolt springs break pretty frequently, and factory nipples are crap.
Noz
Member
Rugers are without a doubt the faster and most trouble free but to some of us they are offensive.
I shoot only Pietta 1860s. All of mine(currently 7, but subject to change) have the tuning, coil springs and nipples that Fingers refers to. Very reliable.
Be aware that there is a rather steep learning curve to become even moderately proficient with the cap guns. I would not advise starting into CAS with them. Start with smokeless guns and work your way into the black powder.
I shoot only Pietta 1860s. All of mine(currently 7, but subject to change) have the tuning, coil springs and nipples that Fingers refers to. Very reliable.
Be aware that there is a rather steep learning curve to become even moderately proficient with the cap guns. I would not advise starting into CAS with them. Start with smokeless guns and work your way into the black powder.
skipjack
Member
I shoot a pair of 51 colts, and could not be happier.
I also have a 61 colt, and am planning to get another soon.
Mine are Ubertis, and I have put Treso cones in them.
I also have a 61 colt, and am planning to get another soon.
Mine are Ubertis, and I have put Treso cones in them.
Fingers McGee
Member
mudriver said:
Yes. While not widely used, there were some factory '51s with shorter than 7.5 inch barrels. There were also gunsmith chopped models.
It's .44 cal and brass framed '51 pattern revolvers that were never made and are an abomination.
FM
I would not count on Pyrodex to shoot very clean with smokeless lubed bullets. Pyro is a little less fouling than real gunpowder but only a little. I would use a BP compatible lube with Pyrodex but not with the other subs like 777 or APP.
ReloaderEd
Member
if you can find a pair of ruger old armys in 5.5" brls you would be better off than with all the reproductions made. Also you can get conversion cylinders for 45acp or 45 colt or 45 scofield. Be Safe
Yes indeed.
BCRider
Member
I'm seeing some serious approaches and modifications listed by folks that obviously shoot a lot of CAS and do so with a degree of seriousness. And certainly if you're the sort to take it all very seriously and will shoot a couple of times or more per month for practicing or in matches then their advice is excellent.
But if you're like me and shoot about once a month and would flip back and forth from cartridges to C&B then you can likely get away with the guns as they come out of the boxes or with just a little of your own internal smoothening. If you're worried about reliability then there's a few things you can do. First off would be to replace the flat trigger and bolt spring with the wire versions. I really should do that for my own guns as they also make the trigger pull a little lighter and are by all accounts MUCH less prone to fatigue failure. Second is to get a spare rebuild kit or two for the guns so that if a hand spring or main spring does let go you've got replacements on hand. I understand from reading on this forum that the kits are easy to get and quite cheap.
Hellgate, thanks for the info on the Pyrodex with stock bullet lube. I'll tuck that away for when I need it.
But if you're like me and shoot about once a month and would flip back and forth from cartridges to C&B then you can likely get away with the guns as they come out of the boxes or with just a little of your own internal smoothening. If you're worried about reliability then there's a few things you can do. First off would be to replace the flat trigger and bolt spring with the wire versions. I really should do that for my own guns as they also make the trigger pull a little lighter and are by all accounts MUCH less prone to fatigue failure. Second is to get a spare rebuild kit or two for the guns so that if a hand spring or main spring does let go you've got replacements on hand. I understand from reading on this forum that the kits are easy to get and quite cheap.
Hellgate, thanks for the info on the Pyrodex with stock bullet lube. I'll tuck that away for when I need it.
skipjack
Member
Regarding subs in rifle cartridges, I am loading triple 7 2f in 44 wcf.
I am using Missouri bullet company bullets which are lubed with blue hard lube. This shoots quite well, and leaves a nice a lube star at the muzzle.
For shotshells, I load triple 7 2f and use Winchester red wads for one and one and one eigth ounce loads. They shoot fine, and lots of good smoke.
I am using Missouri bullet company bullets which are lubed with blue hard lube. This shoots quite well, and leaves a nice a lube star at the muzzle.
For shotshells, I load triple 7 2f and use Winchester red wads for one and one and one eigth ounce loads. They shoot fine, and lots of good smoke.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Consider cartridges.
Before anybody gives me grief for saying that, I bought my first C&B revolver in 1968, so I do have a little bit of experience with them.
First question I will ask you is, have you shot any Cowboy events yet?
A lot of folks look at the price of a C&B revolver and think it is a reasonable low priced way to get into Cowboy shooting. The problem is, C&B is a bit more complicated then shooting cartridges. That's why cartridges were invented, after all. Shooting C&B in a cowboy match is certainly not impossible, there is an entire category devoted to shooting C&B pistols. But it is not for everybody. The main problem is, often times a new shooter will buy a pair of C&B revolvers, and bring them to a match without taking the time to become thoroughly familiar with them. Then a few caps falling off the nipples, or hangfires, or caps jammed in the action can spoil the stage. Have that happen a few times in a match and it can really spoil your day.
If you want to shoot C&B for Cowboy matches, take the time to get thoroughly familiar with them. Get to know them inside out. Get your loading procedures down so you can do it without thinking about it too much. Do what ever is necessary to make them reliable, whether it is putting on after market nipples, or cap guards, or what ever is necessary. There is nothing as discouraging to a new comer as fighting with guns that are not reliable. As I said before, that is why cartridges were invented.
That does not mean you are limited to Smokeless ammo. There are many of us who load real Black Powder into our cartridges for Cowboy shooting. Frankly, a 45 Colt bucking and roaring with a 250 grain bullet and 35 or so grains of FFg is much more exciting than a round ball in front of about 30 grains of FFg. There are lots of options for shooting Black Powder in cartridges.
I do occasionally show up to a match with a pair of 1860 Armys, but only once in a while. I would probably go nuts if I only owned a pair of C&B revolvers, because they do sometimes have problems. It's so much easier, and simpler to just load up cartridges at home, and then fire them at a match. I have never had one fail to go boom.
Just food for thought. If you want to try C&B, learn your guns inside out so you don't get frustrated at a match.
Pulp
Member
All good advice.
I don't do much tuning to my guns, other than a good cleaning every now and then. Last year at End of Trail I put 120 rounds downrange with a combination of Walkers, '60's and '51's. I never had a cap jam and never had a misfire. I can't say that for the smokeless shooters. Several members of my posse had misfires and squibs.
I talk with the Posse Marshall before the match starts and let him/her know I'll be doing my re-charging at the unloading table. I can stop what I'm doing long enough to watch the next shooter unload, then go back to charging. I NEVER ask the next shooter to wait while I finish a step. Once my guns are charged, then I'll go to other posse chores. The unloading table is a great place to meet all the folks on the posse.
The worst screwup I've had was with a new '51Navy. I stupidly used RWS 1075 caps (they worked well on everything else) and had a very serious cap jam. I use Remington #10 exclusively now.
I don't shoot CAS for speed, I'm very close to the World's Worst Cowboy Action Shooter, but I do have fun. I shoot the guns that are the most fun for me and don't care if everyone else brings BB guns.
I don't do much tuning to my guns, other than a good cleaning every now and then. Last year at End of Trail I put 120 rounds downrange with a combination of Walkers, '60's and '51's. I never had a cap jam and never had a misfire. I can't say that for the smokeless shooters. Several members of my posse had misfires and squibs.
I talk with the Posse Marshall before the match starts and let him/her know I'll be doing my re-charging at the unloading table. I can stop what I'm doing long enough to watch the next shooter unload, then go back to charging. I NEVER ask the next shooter to wait while I finish a step. Once my guns are charged, then I'll go to other posse chores. The unloading table is a great place to meet all the folks on the posse.
The worst screwup I've had was with a new '51Navy. I stupidly used RWS 1075 caps (they worked well on everything else) and had a very serious cap jam. I use Remington #10 exclusively now.
I don't shoot CAS for speed, I'm very close to the World's Worst Cowboy Action Shooter, but I do have fun. I shoot the guns that are the most fun for me and don't care if everyone else brings BB guns.
Noz
Member
Driftwood speaks truth!
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