Cap size and cross-fire risk?

[aprayinbear]

Here's a safety question for all you Pietta Remington 1858 owners (or anyone else with an opinion.) I have a tin of both #10 and #11 caps. I found that by pinching the #11's slightly I could get them to fit on the nipples of my Remington. That being said I think most people use #10's. I have read that most cross-fires actually are caused by poor-fitting caps. Am I running a risk by using the pinched #11's?

Thanks for your advice.

 

[BHP FAN]

yes.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

No, you're doin' it right...Pohill had an original write up from Colt that stated just what you did. And I have been doin' it about 28 years with CCI#11 caps...and I presume you are usin' CCI#11?
I just found a good price on Remington Caps which are not available locally to me. Bought 2,000 #10, & #11...the Rem #11's fit better where I had to squeeze my CCI#11's...#10's fit better where I had to hammer seat or fire twice the CCI#10's.
But it's always better to have a squeeze on the cap to fit tightly athen to dang near beat a cap onto a cone and not have it go off. Then jam on the cylinder after it does go off...
Wrong is if the caps fall off...Yer doin' it right!

SG

 

[pohill]

No.
From an old Colt Industries pamphlet:
"Percussion caps are now made in sizes from nine to thirteen. Ten and eleven are the best numbers for the small and medium-sized arms, and twelve for the larger sizes, although, as different-sized nipples are sometimes met in specimens of the same model, no hard and fast rule can be given. It is better to have caps slightly too large than too small, as large caps can be pinched together at the bottom enough so they will stay on the nipples, but small ones must be driven down on the nipple by the blow of the hammer, and this process frequently cushions the blow to the extent of producing a misfire."

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Impeccable timmin' Pohill...

SG

 

[RSVP2RIP]

I always thought that the cross fire from poor fitting caps was something that happened to pepperboxes. In a revolver each nipple has it's own cutout to shield the cap from other flashes. If you add up all the zig-zags a spark would have to make to get at another cap, it seems highly unlikely to get a crossfire. Although they aren't entirely unknown. If we could get a high-speed picture of it happening to a revolver (one of a pepperbox exists) we would know for sure.

 

[Shultzhaus]

I believe this pic came from SG last year. It shows all the places fire comes from these guns. Note the sparks from the cap area. I think it would be prudent to close all possible areas of penetraton from sparks no matter where they come from. I have 3 Piettas, all take #10 caps comfortably tight.

 

[pohill]

I've had two cross-fires, both in .36 caliber, two different guns, from the chamber-mouth end each time, but the fault was mine - I used roundballs that were not perfectly round and had too many irregularities.

 

[mykeal]

I have read that most cross-fires actually are caused by poor-fitting caps.

The word 'most' is a problem. There's no way to prove 'most'; it would be equally valid to say 'most are caused by poor-fitting balls'.

If you add up all the zig-zags a spark would have to make to get at another cap, it seems highly unlikely to get a crossfire.

Sparks are not the cause, so the number of 'zig-zags' is not an issue. Crossfires are caused by the hot gas (I used to call it 'plasma' but was corrected; that's not the proper technical term). The posted picture shows sparks, all moving away from the gun. It also shows the hot gasses enveloping the gun. It's not hard to see how the gas can easily negotiate the 'zig-zags'.

I think it would be prudent to close all possible areas of penetraton from sparks no matter where they come from.

Again, sparks aren't the initiator, but the conclusion is correct. Pinching caps does leave a possible opening, but it's better than leaving them loose, which is a bigger opening, and adds the risk of them coming off altogether.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

Note the sparks from the cap area.

Yes but they don't appear to be going anywhere near another cap. As far as hot gasses? I don't know, I can't say it isn't a cause but, I never burned my hand shooting the gun as the gasses are also enveloping his hand, so I'm dubious. It is a good illustration to support sealing up the chamber mouths though. I also use #10 caps on then to good effect as they seal up tight enough that it is difficult to remove an unfired one.

 

[DuncanSA]

I have only been shooting BP revolvers for a few years but have come to the conclusion that firms making nipples and those making caps never communicate. So called sizes never seem to correspond.

 

[aprayinbear]

Now I'm really confused...


Seems that folks have differing opinions about the question of safety and cap size. I went back to the range today and carried both the #10's and #11's. The 10's were almost impossible to get on the nipple (even though I used a small wooden dowel to help place the cap.) They required a lot of pushing and finagling! The pinched 11's went on much more easily and hugged the nipple. They never came loose or fell off. In the final analysis I felt better about the pinched 11's , rather then forcing the 10's. I'm always a little paranoid that a cap could go off.

Any more thoughts? Thanks for all your suggestions!

 

[AdmiralB]

In my (limited) experience, there ain't a lot of standardization with respect to either nipple or cap sizes.

I've used Remington and CCI #10s, and RWS 1075s. Of these, the CCIs are the smallest, and the RWS largest.

The CCIs fit my Uberti Walker perfectly, Remingtons work but are a little bit loose without pinching, and RWS fall off.

The CCIs are too tight for my other Ubertis ('51, '60, 1858) - won't go on easily, fail to fire on the first strike about 50% of the time. The Remingtons fit these just fine, and the RWS are a little loose without a pinch.

 

[5knives]

Better a slightly larger cap, pinched than one too tight, as has been said.

If you think crossfires come from the nipple/cap joint or for storage loaded OR in rainy wether, a few drops of bees wax to seal the cap nipple joint and you're good to go.

Most crossfires occur when burning gas is reflected back into adjacent chambers which have not been properly sealed with either felt wads or grease! Loading powder and ball alone is an invitation to crossfire, sooner or later it will happen.

I've intentionally stored loaded capped BP revolvers through out some long hot, humid WI Springs and Summers, as well as carrying in the rain, and had all chambers fired as desired when discharged months later. In one instance almost two years later, no problems.

All JMHO of course, but I have been playing with these things for a bit over 60 years.

Regards,

 

[RSVP2RIP]

You can try different brands of caps. I noticed that Remington changed their caps so that they are a little tighter than before. I think they can get away with this because the sides are split. They fit kinda like a #10.5.

 

[mykeal]

Most crossfires occur when burning gas is reflected back into adjacent chambers which have not been properly sealed with either felt wads or grease!

There's that word 'most' again. Show me the data.

Look, it doesn't matter which end starts 'most' of the crossfires. Create a good seal on BOTH ends. Get good fitting caps. Use good fitting balls. Use a wad and/or grease, whatever makes you feel better. But, DO BOTH ENDS.

Regarding the gas enveloping the hand: it's not a uniform temperature by any means, and it cools very quickly away from the ignition source. Black powder, and the substitute powders are ignited by heat. I'm sure there are many crossfire incidents that don't occur because the gas finds a leak but just isn't hot enough. Your hand is further away than the adjacent chamber, so the gas is very much cooler at your hand than the next chamber.

 

[Acorn Mush]

Here's a safety question for all you Pietta Remington 1858 owners (or anyone else with an opinion.) I have a tin of both #10 and #11 caps. I found that by pinching the #11's slightly I could get them to fit on the nipples of my Remington. That being said I think most people use #10's. I have read that most cross-fires actually are caused by poor-fitting caps. Am I running a risk by using the pinched #11's?

Instead of worrying about expanding caps that are too small or pinching caps that are too large, you might be better served if you just replace the stock nipples with better-quality aftermarket units from Treso. They are available through Track of the Wolf, among other vendors.

Several years ago I replaced a set of stock nipples with Tresos and have never had a problem with them. CCI #11s fit like gloves, and I've never had a misfire.

Regarding cross-fires, many, MANY years ago I had the unique pleasure of experiencing one. It was initiated from the rear of the cylinder. How do I know that? Because a nice ring of lead shaved off each ball I had seated. In addition, each chamber was completely filled with extra-heavy duty wheelbearing grease over the ball.

Anyway, spend a few bucks on a good set of nipples and then spend more time a-shootin' and less time a-worryin'.

 

[5knives]

Regarding the gas enveloping the hand: it's not a uniform temperature by any means, and it cools very quickly away from the ignition source. Black powder, and the substitute powders are ignited by heat. I'm sure there are many crossfire incidents that don't occur because the gas finds a leak but just isn't hot enough. Your hand is further away than the adjacent chamber, so the gas is very much cooler at your hand than the next chamber.

Please cite your sources mykeal, preferably those that have been peer reviewed and published in professional journals.

Sounds potentiality dangerous to take just anyone's word for such a broad statement, without supporting evidence!

Until you do ...

Regards,

 

[mykeal]

Any simple thermodynamic analysis will verify the validity. Or the experience of several hundred thousand black powder percussion revolver shooters, and the few hundred that have experienced a crossfire.

On second thought, it probably is real dangerous, and you shouldn't take the chance, so please don't shoot any bp percussion revolvers.

 

[bigbadgun]

I have shot both .36 and .44 cal bp revolvers using both #10 and #11 caps without a chain fire maybe im just lucky.

 

[5knives]

On second thought, it probably is real dangerous, and you shouldn't take the chance, so please don't shoot any bp percussion revolvers.

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful advice but you're about 60 years too late.

Grandpa wouldn't let me shoot his 1860 Colt until I was 10.

I'll definitely take it under consideration in the future though!

Probably just beginners luck that I've never had a multi-chamber discharge. Never with his or any of my own.

Wonder how many thousand shots it takes to quit being a beginner?

Regards,

 

[pohill]

Has anyone ever had, or heard of, a chainfire using Pryodex? I think it probably wouldn't happen since it's not as tempermental as BP.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

I haven't heard of any BP Subs with chainfires...cause relatively new compared to Black Powder or More Black Powder users? I don't know... I have also had two Multiple Discharges(chain fires sound like all six go off) of 2 ea. ball leaving the cylinder...and no matter how much research I could do or compare to or try to duplicate...I can't nor can I say absolutely prove which end the double shot came from.
But I am 99% sure it wasn't the ball end the 2nd time, the balls I put in the second time it happened had lube pills on the powder and the balls got shaved .002" rings.
Chain Fires can not be proved so be safe at both ends...usually it's a freak occurance or complacency.

SG

 

[madcratebuilder]

But I am 99% sure it wasn't the ball end the 2nd time, the balls I put in the second time it happened had lube pills on the powder and the balls got shaved .002" rings.

SG, if you had a grease cookie under the ball I would bet on it being a cap that caused the multi discharge. But like you said it's difficult to prove one way or the other.
I have been lucky never to have experienced a chain fire.

 

[Pulp]

I've had a few, used to have a '58 that was pretty bad about. I finally found that one nipple had a shoulder broken off and you could see the threads on that side. I'd hazard a guess those MD's were caused from the back end.

The others were from accidentally loading some .440 round balls. I'd hazard a guess those MD's came from the front.