Caps not firing?

[Panzerschwein]

I shot my dad's brass frame Pietta .44 Colt Navy about 60 times, brand new gun, everything was going great. I was using a brand new tin of Remington #10 caps I got at Bass Pro a few days prior.

Well about the third shooting session out, the gun is now misfiring quite badly. The hammer is falling and making a dent on the caps, but for some reason, the caps aren't going off?? They were doing great but now this tin of caps are misfiring about half the time! FYI I am also using Goex FFFG and Crisco over Hornady .454 balls, which seem to fit great leaving a small lead ring when seated.

I even opened up a tin of CCI #10 caps and actually had some misfires with them to, what gives? I have been shooting in So. Illinois and it is quite humid here. My first thought was humidity had fouled the tin of caps after a couple days of exposure. Does this sound likely? Dropping the hammer on the caps again does not cause ignition.

I have cleaned the gun between shooting with Ballistol and made sure to get the nipples clean by using a safety pin to scrub them out etc. and used Breakfree powder blaster to degrease the cylinder. The issue is that the caps simply are not going off, but the other two days of shooting had 100% succesful ignitions with the Remington #10s. Just am not sure what is going on here!

I am at a complete and utter loss as to what to do. If someone, anyone knows how to help me, please do!

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Put the caps on the nipples & then seat them by pushing firmly with a pusher stick, piece of antler, etc.

Also, Italian factory caps suck.
If you are going to shoot it regularly, I suggest you purchase a set of Treso or slix nipples for it.

I shoot my guns every weekend at cowboy matches, and never have a failure to fire.
I have Treso or Slix nips on all my guns and use only remington #10 caps.

--Dawg

 

[SleazyRider]

Remington #10s and CCI #10s aren't exactly the same size. Did you try dropping the hammer repeatedly on the same cap? Usually the problem is that the cap isn't seated against the nipple all the way, owing to it's diameter and/or length. I had to "tune" the nipples in several of my revolvers by spinning them on the lathe (a drill press would work, also) and sizing them to fit #10 Remington caps more precisely.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Frequently failure to fire happens when the cap is not completely seated.
When you hit it the first time, it seats it.
Then you have to hit it a second time to fire it.

Seat it properly on a good aftermarket nipple & it will fire every time.
--Dawg

 

[SleazyRider]

Also, with the hammer down, it would be interesting to check the gap between hammer and nipple. The position of the cylinder could affect this, so be sure the wedge is seating the arbor all the way.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Read this cap primer.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=9093.0

The numbers (like #10) have no universal meaning.
Match the cap to the nipple for best success.
--Dawg

 

[Curator]

Check to see if you have a flattened cap fragment in the hammer-slot. Sometimes a small piece of copper can get into the slot and cushion the hammer blow causing misfires. They seem to be able to stick in there pretty tight and avoid casual detection.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

...Dropping the hammer on the caps again does not cause ignition...

Weak or short strike?

 

[SleazyRider]

It'd be interesting to back the nipples out half a turn and try firing with caps only, no powder. If that produces ignition, it's time to look at the length of the nipples or position of the cylinder.

 

[J-Bar]

Check to see if you have a flattened cap fragment in the hammer-slot. Sometimes a small piece of copper can get into the slot and cushion the hammer blow causing misfires. They seem to be able to stick in there pretty tight and avoid casual detection.

this ^^^

 

[Old Fuff]

Also, with the hammer down, it would be interesting to check the gap between hammer and nipple.

This is a good idea. Also before you load up to shoot put fresh caps on each nipple and fire them. This should clear out any remain oil.

The position of the cylinder could affect this, so be sure the wedge is seating the arbor all the way.

DON'T DO THIS! The wedge isn't supposed to be seated all the way. Instead put a feeler gauge between the front of the cylinder and back of the barrel. Then lightly tap the wedge into place. Experiment to find the best width of gap, that is usually between .006" to 010".

Also check to see if the arbor (cylinder pin) hole in the barrel is drilled too deep. Back out the wedge and remove the barrel and cylinder. Then put the barrel back on, turn it sideways, and gently tap it while looking to see where it goes. When it's seated turn it back to almost the original position and see if it's seated further then the front of the frame at the bottom in front of the trigger guard.

 

[Pancho]

Usually a second strike will fire a unseated cap but I'd agree with the advice that good aftermarket nipples are needed on Italian guns anyway. I prefer Track of the Wolf in house SS nipples because they design their nipples to a specific cap and will tell you which nipple they design to. If and when you do order nipples call them and order don't just order online and ask what cap their nipple is designed to.

 

[J-Bar]

After market nipples are certainly a good idea, but the factory nipples aren't going suddenly go bad after one range session.

Disassemble the gun completely to check for cap fragments.

 

[44 Dave]

New gun, open top,cap jam!
Don't go spending money, just open it up and dump the squashed cap parts out.
These things are are fun but require a little more TLC than a Glock.
If you want to spend $ buy some good screw drivers.

 

[Hellgate]

I agree that cap fragments are the most likely culprit when a normally functioning C&B suddenly starts acting up. Look under the hammer against the frame.
How many grains of powder are you shooting in that thing? Keep the loads around 20 grs of FFFg. 25grs would be tops and 30 gr loads will either shoot the arbor loose or peen the recoil ring on the frame to where you will have too much gap and you'll have a cylinder that moves too much for & aft. That could also cause ignition problems.

 

[EljaySL]

I'm in the cap fragment camp too, since it worked well initially. Those things can really work themselves into tight spots and rob the hammer of power.

 

[Noz]

If the arbor length is correct, which it is on most Piettas, you cannot change the gap with the wedge. It is either in or out.
With an Uberti with a short arbor you can change the gap by pounding on the wedge. Best thing here is to correct the arbor error.

I also think his cap problem is a cap fragment.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks guys, well I broke the gun down all the way and thouroughly cleaned every part of it, removing built up grime in the guts of the thing. I didn't really notice any cap fragments but I may have just missed them or they were too small to see easily.

For about the first 60 shots of firing the gun, shooting 30 rounds one day and 30 the next, I was using 30 grains of Goex FFFG. This is a brass framed gun, do you think that may have caused some endshake to develop? I now notice on the gun that there is about 2mm of endshake and that seems kind of excessive. Did I shoot the gun loose already and the endshake is cushioning the hammer as it falls?

Another thing, I would have about half the caps fire just fine with the first hammer fall, but the other half wouldn't fire even after multiple attempts per cap, so it was sort of an "all or nothing" type thing. I couldn't get a once fired cap to go off, it either went off first try or didn't go off at all even with a mark in the top of the cap from the gun's hammer.

Well anyway, the gun is thoroughly cleaned and I'm going to try again tomorrow morning. Hoping I have better luck and that it was just a dirty gun causing the issues. Thanks for the help everyone, will let you know what happens!

 

[Hellgate]

Mark which nipples don't fire. Designate a chamber as #1, #2, #3, etc. and write down which if any consistantly don't fire. On those you can shim out the nipple a few thou to make it fire. I suspect your 30gr loads shot the gun loose. 2mm is a bit too much movement. Take it apart and see if the arbor is loose or if there are indentations of the cylinder on the recoil ring of the frame (right where the cylinder contacts the raised ring). If you shim or back the nipples out make sure they don't stick so far back that the caps can contact the recoil shield. That is one way a C&B can get a chain fire when the cylinder slams back under recoil and the caps hit the frame. Let us know how it shoots and what you find.