Car Chases--Why Not Shoot The Engines?

[No_Brakes23]

Keep in mind that the following is anecdotal, but I have heard of box'o'truth style car shoots done by LEOs/Operators/Enthusiasts etc. They seem to conclude that even .50BMG and 12ga slug are not certain to punch a block, let alone disable the vehicle. Now an M2 firing skads of .50BMG can disable a vehicle, but I haven't seen the boys in blue totin' Ma Deuce in their units.

Hitting the car in the vitals-so to speak is a great idea, but perhaps not a practical one.

 

[dfaugh]

Assumptions

So far every one has talked primarily about stopping the engine by damaging the engine block itself, and are correct about the inabilty of small arms to penetrate the block or cylinder heads.

BUT, if you own a newer car, open the hood and really look at it...On some cars you can't even SEE most of the engine...because its covered with all kinds of fuel injection parts, electronics, etc. And alot of those parts, if disabled will stop it DRT. A hit to any number of fuel injection, ignition parts, computers (many cars have more than one),even some of the sensors and wiring will stop the engine.

So, I would say that IF you can get a couple rounds, even 9mm, into the engine compartment, there's probably at least a 50/50 chance of disabling it.

My .02

 

[Father Knows Best]

So far every one has talked primarily about stopping the engine by damaging the engine block itself, and are correct about the inabilty of small arms to penetrate the block or cylinder heads.

BUT, if you own a newer car, open the hood and really look at it...On some cars you can't even SEE most of the engine...because its covered with all kinds of fuel injection parts, electronics, etc. And alot of those parts, if disabled will stop it DRT. A hit to any number of fuel injection, ignition parts, computers (many cars have more than one),even some of the sensors and wiring will stop the engine.

So, I would say that IF you can get a couple rounds, even 9mm, into the engine compartment, there's probably at least a 50/50 chance of disabling it.

My .02

You were o.k. until that last paragraph. There are a number of little pieces in an engine compartment that, if damaged sufficient, could cause the vehicle to stop. These include the ECU and the fuel lines. The odds of hitting one, however, are nowhere near 50/50. Think about shooting a person with a 9 mm. There are lots of little things, like the heart, major arteries, spinal cord, etc., that if hit, would cause nearly instant death. But how many people shot with a 9 mm die instantly? Almost none, despite the fact that a human being is a much softer target, and the lethal areas make up a much larger percentage of the target area.

The odds of actually striking a critical component in an engine compartment with a projectile that is only 3/10 or even a half inch in diameter are miniscule, considering that you probably have no idea where the "vitals" are, both you and the target are moving at high speed, and you need to shoot through a lot of sheet metal (causing deflections and absorbing a lot of energy) in order to reach them.

I'd be willing to bet that we could buy a modern small car, drive it onto a range, start it up, and have a dozen guys start blasting away with handguns, rifles, whatever, and it would take a LONG time to get the engine to stop. I've got $50 that says that when it finally stops, it's because the radiator and cooling hoses (and perhaps even block water jacket, if someone has a .50BMG) have been pierced, causing the coolant to leak out and the engine to overheat and seize up.

 

[armoredman]

If the driver is not completely crazy, best to follow at safe distance, and not endanger the public anymore than necessary. Following with helicopters is the best, safest method, as Joe Escaper will think he's safe, and SLOW DOWN. To willfully shoot at a vehicle in a manner to cause it to go out of control can lead to very Bad Things. You put a round in Joes' engine outside of town, but when his brakes bleed out is right in front of a crowded school. Shooting at tires is a usual last ditch response, and done very carefully. Any projectile that misses, WILL be found, and a lawsuit WILL be filed. Civilians are positive police departments are loaded with money just waiting to be given away to anyone who finds a spent shotgun pellet in thier front yard and sues for emotional distress....
No, I am not stating that high speed pursuits should be abandoned, just each individual scenario needs to be judged by the officers on the scene, and admin, on it's individual merits. This little I know is from friends who are street LE, the closest I have to a high speed pursuit is chasing down a running inmate on the yard...like he's going anywhere.

 

[bpisler]

Radiator

I think it would be easier to take out the
cooling system.Maybe a couple rounds of
buckshot thru the grill area would work
pretty well.However taking any type of
shot at a moving vehicle would be risky.

 

[Firehand]

Ok, I was just beat to it. I've been asking for years, if you've got a situation where you're justified to shoot to stop the vehicle, from a frontal angle- especially with a shotgun- hit the radiator. Good-sized target, easy to damage, and when the coolant leaks out the engine doesn't run very long.

I've read of a couple of cases of this in years past, but you NEVER hear of it done or mentioned as a method. I've asked several LE officers about it, and they always say something like "If you're justified to shoot, go for the driver" or "Always shoot center of mass", even on a vehicle. Why try to hit a driver inside a metal & glass cage when you can take out the cooling system and, short time later, the car stops?

 

[middy]

I think Metro police should have a pursuit car with an M2 turret... NOT!

 

[Dionysusigma]

What about a .50 BMG AP through the engine, and one of the wheel rims too?

 

[Manedwolf]

We just had a tragic fatality when a car thief fleeing police plowed into a car at an intersection. The APD officers were trying to shoot at the driver beforehand with their side arms, but as with 99% of other cases where officers try to hit a speeding driver with a handgun bullet, they failed. The target is too smal, too fastl and too well protected in the cab for a handgun to nail.

And we've all seen many, many helicopter videos of stolen cars driving over tires spikes only to drive on for many miles on the rims alone. Modern cars are so well made you can still speed on the raw metal. So that's no good.

It got me thinking, as a technical more than legal matter, what would a high-powered rifle round do if fired through the hood into the engine block? The engine is a much bigger and easier target to hit than the driver. Has anyone seen how far a .30'06 bullet will cut through an engine? Would a bullet stop the vehicle quickly? I don't know enough about cars to say one way or the other.

I'd thought that was something that the military has done to stop a vehicle, usually from a helicopter... but they also use a .50.

 

[BryanP]

my team leader carried a shotgun when he was over in Iraq, he said that slugs work great for killing cars, and the driver for that matter. not that I would want a cop to be shooting from one car at another at high speeds, to dangerous for everyone, I agree follow with the choppers till he runs out of gas.

Ithaca used to make a shotgun marketed to police for this purpose. The Ithaca Mag-10 Roadblocker. 10ga semi-auto, 3 round magazine. They claimed that a 10ga slug could pass completely through a car from the rear and crack the engine block.

 

[Meplat]

I know handguns are out, but I'm asking about a high powered rifle round to an engine block. Has anyone actually tried it on an old engine and see what kind of penetration they get?

Again I don't want to get into legalities or department policies of this. And I'm not asking about the strategy issues. I'm just asking a general gun question re:

a) is it even possible with a high powered rifle and
b) assuming you can get penetration, would it stop the engine

Maybe this is one for the Mythbusters.

Hmmm....where are those boxes of Grand Slams I got whent that sporting goods store went out of business?

"Honey, you go get the Chevy, I'll get the .375 H&H....got something I wanna try..."

 

[chopinbloc]

the army is phasing out the m60 and replacing it with the m240b. i think they should be surplused to police departments for various uses. one of them would be helicopter mounting. i'm pretty sure that a couple bursts from a pig (the machinegun, not the officer ) would do a number on a car's engine. if not, the driver should also be a legitimate target. these chases endager folks and his actions should be considered just as hostile as randomly popping off rounds from an ak. obviously, there are places that you wouldn't want to try this but when you've got the freeway cleared off and there's no one for miles like we often see in these televised chases, the tactic ought to be pretty effective. a dozen rounds or so should almost certainly find something vital. the top of the engine has so many vital bits and pices that i find it unlikely that a burst or two wouldn't do the job. several posters have mentioned that a car can run a couple pistons short. well, sure, but when a bullet passes through the cylinder wall, it's not just putting a clean hole there, it's pushing metal into the cylinder - into the path of the piston. that sort of thing is likely to cause spontaneous, catastrophic disassembly. i'm pretty sure you could get excellent penetration with 7.62 ball but if you loaded with ap, you've got a very effective means of turning off mechanical devices from a distance.

on a related note, i watched a video once where a group of folks rigged an old station wagon with remote control and shot at it from a flat bed. they started with pistols, moved up to rifles and shotguns and then title II devices. they disabled the car several times and repaired it each time but it didn't seem that they were specifically trying to stop the vehicle as that would have shortened their fun. the point is that even the handguns got a "kil" on the old station wagon.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

Time to call in these guys.

- NF

 

[dfaugh]

I'll take that bet

I'd be willing to bet that we could buy a modern small car, drive it onto a range, start it up, and have a dozen guys start blasting away with handguns, rifles, whatever, and it would take a LONG time to get the engine to stop. I've got $50 that says that when it finally stops, it's because the radiator and cooling hoses (and perhaps even block water jacket, if someone has a .50BMG) have been pierced, causing the coolant to leak out and the engine to overheat and seize up.

For alot more that $50... again if I can get a (reasonably) clean shot, I'm going for the upper part of the engine (where the fuel injection stuff is on most engines). even a .22 will go through the sheet metal on a car (I've tried it) with no problem, although maybe won't have enough nergy to do much damage. But anything that's much more powerful will probably do enough damage. 9mm might take couple tries, but with 7.62x39 FMJ, it'll be DRT.

 

[orangeninja]

Guys...the Russians figured this out a long time ago. The solution? Why an RPG of course.

 

[c_yeager]

The driver himself is a bigger and more visible target than the vital components of an engine block...

Also, if your gonna shoot the engine you need to be next to the car, which is a hard position to mantain if its moving, or you need to be in front of the car, which isnt a place that one is going to want to hang out in for very long.

 

[engineer151515]

Use a focused beam, EMP burst.


Car rolls to stop - electronics fried, passengers OK.

 

[James T Thomas]

back to the future

Somewhere in the past, sorry I forgot to take my memory pill this morning, I saw an experimental "Taser" like device that fired a high voltage emitting projectile that inbedded itself onto the sheet metal of the persued vehicle.

Since the electrical systems are grounded onto the body, the scrambled voltage from this device was able to give the fleeing car a fibbrualtion type processor brain scramble.

Is anyone familiar with this?

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

.458 Caliber 500gns

Been there done that Cosmo, I demoed a short barreled 1895 Marlin to EPCSD some years ago with yer basic Hornady 500gn solid clocking 1500fps.
We busted up a dozen cast iron V-8 blocks at the local wrecking yard, each shot would penetrate and destroy a cylinder and piston.
Yeppers they bought ammo and shorty Marlins circa 1988

 

[Crosshair]

My old Escort had a blown head gasket and I drove it for a few months while I looked for a new car. (I was junking the Escort.) I drove 20 miles and the radiator was only 1/2 empty. (Though there was alot of steam.)

 

[NMshooter]

I have put holes in engine blocks (not all the way through) with .223.

Of course, the cars were junk, just sitting there.

Shoot a car enough times and you will hit something important, but shoot enough times in an urban environment and you are bound to hit something you did not want to...

Some kind of cable that wraps around the driveshaft/halfshafts and locks the whole mess up might be worth investigating. Or a modified spike strip that could do the same thing.

Best way I know of to stop a vehicle is a berm or an anti-vehicle ditch. Or both together. Especially with some landmines. Having a couple squads to cover your obstacle does not hurt either.

No easy answers here.

 

[RecoilRob]

Guys, the answer to High Speed Chases is here now. It is called Onstar and soon (I heard by '08) will be standard equipment on ALL GM vehicles. In time it will be mandatory on ALL vehicles sold in our country.

The true push behind the technology is NOT to help everyone who is dumb enough to lock their keys....and dog, kids, etc. in their cars.

Once a high percentage of cars on the road have Onstar capability, the pursuing Officer has only to make a call....."please stop the car in front of me" and, with the help of GPS tracking, in a few seconds it can be done.

If they can unlock your doors, they can shut off your engine. And, let us not mention the arrests made by tapping into the com system and listening to the conversations of the vehicles occupants. I can't provide a link to the absolute proof of this but I CAN say that it IS possible.....with appropriate legal warrants and court permissions, of course.

Oh, back on topic....stopping a car engine would be largely chance from the side, nearly impossible from the rear and pretty iffy to do from above or the front unless you use something pretty stout. Only bad thing about the frontal shot is (unless you are travelling ahead of the car to be stopped) you don't have much time and you stand a good chance to be run over!

Also, remember that many modern engines will run a LONG TIME without any coolant. The computer will switch off injectors so the cylinder pumps only air to cool itself and this scheme is cycled through the engine maintaining a safe operating temp. Sure, you are down on power but the engine will not overheat enough to stop.

 

[Jeff White]

In time it will be mandatory on ALL vehicles sold in our country.

This is someone's pipe dream. Please provide a link to pending legislation or even a proposal by someone in the govt.?

Ediited to add: The last motorist assist that I did that was generated by ONSTAR gave us a location four miles from where the car actually was. I'd hardly trust that technology to turn off the car in front of me.

Jeff

 

[sm]

One is responsible for every projectile fired.
Makes no difference on what side of the law the shooter is.
Risks occur as the result of people, places and things being fired upon, at, or hit.
Includes two tons of metal - again no difference which side of the law, that two tons metal hitting people places things has a responible tag on it too.

Ever shot a moving target? How about shooting one while moving yourself?
Ever had two tons of metal causing you "severe problems"? Ever shot at a car with the engine running? Add while you are running, driving and shooting?

I have. It ain't easy.

Movies and TV do not always portray what actually happens.

Hard to outrun a radio, a helicopter, or plane.

LEOs have their own respective rules to abide by. Civilian like me have to understand our jurisdictions we are in (home or abroad) in a given time.

Firearms are great, there is a place for them along with other tools in the toolbox.

Firearms are not THE toolbox.

Steve

 

[JMusic]

I agree Jeff. Where's the tin foil? I miss the days when all you needed was a cow catcher welded to the front of your cruiser.
Jim