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Carbine choice--> M4gery or SA58

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Stinkyshoe

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I value ammo compatibility between weapons. I also value simplicity. I would like to reduce the types of platforms I have for the sake of economy.

The M4 is great. I view it as a short range weapon mainly.(200 yards and under) It is light and ergonomic. It is easy to shoot and very manageable.

The SA58 is about the same size as the M4(with the telescoping buttstock out all the way of course). This platform is quite light for being a 308. It felt about like a M4 with a few some bells and jingles.

here it is...http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58C&storeid=1&image=sa58carbine.gif

I assume that the SA58 would have better terminal ballistics that the M4, but it is a shame to loose the barrel length in the 308 and loose some valuable velocity. Would do you suppose the maximum range of the Sa58 would be? Since my choice for a MBR is a 308 as well, the same ammo would be great too.

If you had to choose, what would you get? Would you keep your M4 and....?

Any advice/thoughts are appreciated.
Thanks
Ss
 
I"d go for the SA58 myself, but I"m a bit of a FALaholic :D Got a full size STg58 and working on an 11" SBR with para stock FAL like the DSA OSW :evil:
 
No matter what the velocity of the shorty .308 is, it is going to be a hell of a lot more devastating than a .223. There are some people that will argue a specific bullet design, with a heavy weight, and high velocity in .223 can create a pretty horrific wound that will match or exceed .308 ball at lower velocity.....BUT - all being equal, this isn't true. Since comparing ball to wonder bullets isn't fair.


At or under 200 yards...there really isn't any advantage in having a .308 if your "mission" is anti-personel. The .308 will only give you the ability to shoot through their concealment and cover much more effectively.


It all comes down to whether or not you consider a COM shot with a .308 overkill vs. a COM shot with a .223. I think each will get the job done.


Now....over 300 yards...the story changes.
 
Not at all. I'm just saying it's moot. Given the power of the .308...whomever you hit with that is going to be in a world of hurt. Losing a few hundred FPS isn't going to make that much of a difference on a human.

It has the huge advantage of larger diameter, greater length, and greater weight over a .223. The .223 relies on specific things like high velocity to facilitate the fragmentation of the bullet to increase the tissue destruction. If you fall below the velocity threshold of the .223 for fragmentation, all you've got is a glorified .22mag. FPS is related to range, as the round slows down the further out.

Heavier .30 cal bullets aren't dependent on this factor to get the job done.

This is why the .223 isn't so hot out past 200-250 yards. This isn't to say it won't kill, maim, or incapcitate any threat - it just won't be as effective as if done at 85 yards, and "effectiveness" only relates to us in the form of probability. The probability that you'll drop them with a shot of .223 at 50 yards is FAR greater than an equally placed shot at 300 because of the significant difference in wound profiles.


.308 doesn't matter. Get nailed by that at 500 yards and it ain't no .22mag.

If you're thinking of using these at 200 yards or less...then it's a coin flip - either will do, pick whichever one is more ergonomic or reliable or you like better for whatever reason.


If you want to have good terminal performance out past 250 yards and on...the .308 is the choice.
 
Those in the know choose the SA58 as the ideal SHTF weapon.

With ten tested mags and match grade ammo, it can't be beat for GP shooting. The low rail allows for a natural scope or red dot position. The recoil is light, and balance is sweet for quick presentation. The best thing about them is the hard hitting ability of the .308 at long ranges. Enjoy the best, and have peace of mind that you bought the best.
 
Of course it's the SA-58.

These two aren't even in the same class.

Reliability / durability / "stopability"

;)
 
Comparing commonly available mil-spec .223 ball to mil-spec .308 ball, the .223 ball will have superior terminal performance out to 150+ yards. Surprising, but true - very little .308 ball fragments on impact.

Comparing premium expanding bullets, it's pretty much a wash at any range. You're talking about a 10"x8" wound channel versus a 11"x10" wound channel. Either will be horrific.

Me, I'd rather have the M4. Lighter, less recoil and muzzle blast, easier to shoot rapidly.

- Chris
 
One thing to keep in mind is that while an M4 indoors is very loud, a .308 out of a 16" barrel is VVVEEEERRRYYY loud.
 
From what I've been studying lately, the SA-58C is ideal in an 18" barrel.
 
Why not split the difference and get a 16" AR platform in a 30-cal intermediate chambering (i.e. 7.62x39) or in 6.8SPC? Both seem more appropriate for a 16" barrel than 308, and both will provide ample terminal behavior given reasonable ammo selection....

I'm personally a fan of the 7.62x39 AR moreso than the 6.8SPC, but that's solely because of ammo commonality with my SKSs and AKs.
 
As you well know from reading on-line gun forums, most of the questions you ask could spark endless discussions and we may never get any kind of concrete answers.
"I assume that the SA58 would have better terminal ballistics that the M4"
Depends on the bullet you are using. With military ball, at fairly close range, no. At long range, yes. With good bullets, yes.
"Would do you suppose the maximum range of the Sa58 would be?"
First of all, this is totally dependent on how well you shoot. Then we have to ask, max range for what ? Hitting a human ? With the short barrel, the bullet is going to go subsonic out somewhere around 700-800 yards ? Just a guess. This is going to have a negative effect on accuracy but doesn't mean you can't hit someone past that range. I would guess (I don't know) that the bullet would be deadly as far away as you can hit someone for all practical purposes. Then of course we could get into the discussion I tried to bring up a couple weeks ago: how many people that discuss things like this have ever really fired their rifles at 500, 600.......? How many know their sight dope for these ranges ? ETC. It is one thing to have these discussions on line about theoretical situations and it is another to be able to pull the shot off yourself under field conditions. This is one of the reasons I personally don't really think there is an advantage to using the .308 over the 5.56: at ranges where you could actually see and enemy and hit an enemy or be in danger from an enemy hitting you, either cartridge is fine.
I would probably keep the M4, but an FAL equipped with a rail system and some other doo dads (optics, light) I can see the FAL being a valid choice also.
I own a full sized STG58 and I wouldn't take it over an AR15 but it isn't equipped with optics or a light.
 
Have you talked to DSA about availability of the standard SA58s?

I called a few weeks ago and there were none to be had, and no idea of when they might reappear.

They had lots of the "collector" series, but not the standard ( I was looking for the rifle).


Might be a while before you could get one. I don't know what dealers carry them though, so you might find one around somewhere.

I think it's a great choice, and I'll pick one up eventually.....

Don't know if the shortage still exists, but if you're in a hurry it might change your thinking.....
 
Have you personally handled both weapons? I have an 18" FAL carbine and a couple AR carbines. The ARs are featherweights in comparison. My FAL has a muzzle brake and is a pussycat to shoot, but even so, the ARs feel like 22LRs in comparison. The ARs are also much more accurate (at least mine are) and have much better sights. The 7.62 might have more stopping power at 300 yards, but I don't think I could hit anything out that far with a FAL's iron sights. (but then again I also have a 7.62x51 Garand ;) )

Now, I can't make up my mind so I have both sitting side by side in my gunsafe with three mags of Black Hills 75gr OTM for the AR and three mags of TAP 155gr. AMAX for the FAL. I like to have options.

If I had to choose one to keep, I'd take the FAL without a doubt and just workout more.
 
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