KISS/early M4gery?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Panzerschwein

Panzerschwein

member
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
8,122
Location
Desert
Hi all! :)

Well, it's time for this cowboy to build his first AR-15. :cool:

And I'm doing it LEAAN n' MEAN!!!! :evil:

But where do I start?? :confused:

Let me elaborate:

I am wanting to build a KISS (Keep It Simply Stupid) M4gery style AR-15 carbine that will be modeled after the first model M4 carbine used by the U.S. military. That is to say it will have a "fiberlite" telescoping buttstock, fixed iron sights (no flat top w/ rail) and standard M4 furniture... and a 14.5" pinned and welded barrel. This is what I'm looking for:

M4_clearpic.gif

So the parts I am needing are:

Lower: Would prefer a Colt made lower with the pretty pretty pony on it, just to be more like the real thing. Where can I get a stock Colt M4 type lower for a good price? I will be keeping the lower 100% stock.

Stock: I will be getting a fiberlite old style CAR-15/M4 butt stock. If you aren't familiar with these, they look quite a bit like the current M4 butt stock but have a smaller buttpad. Where can I find one of these old style buttstocks?

Upper: I want a fixed carry handle upper, that is to say no picattiny rail. I will be shooting with iron sights and only iron sights. As for the BCG/charging handle, I don't care what is it as long as it is standard milspec and made from a good manufacturer.

Barrel: I want an M4-profile 14.5" barrel that is pinned & welded with standard A2 flash hider. I want a standard carbine length gas system with standard A-frame iron sights. Standard being the key word.

After that, that is it. It's about as KISS as you can get, but I want it to be at least a decent attempt to look like the very early M4 carbines that came with fixed sights.

So, what do you AR gurus out there have fore me? Where can I find these parts for the least amount of dollar possible? I'd like to stay under $1000 if possible for the entire build, but can budge if needed. Thank you all so much for your help, it really mean alot to me and I honestly have no idea where to begin.

Thanks guys! :D

PS: I am dead set on a fixed carry handle and 14.5" pinned & welded barrel. I know the pros/cons of this and while it might not be your cup of tea, it's what I want.
 
PSA complete lower lower, A2 upper also from PSA. Check them for buffer tube and parts, also.

Windham Weaponry chrome lined 1:7 twist 14.5" barrel with pinned extended A2 flash suppresor. Buy the delta ring kit and charging handle from them, also.

Spikes Tactical BCG, front sight post, pin and detent, gas tube w/rollpin from Brownells.

Stock wherever you can find it cheapest. Make sure of buffer tube size before ordering the stock.

I built mine with these parts, except I went with a flat top upper, BCM BCG and BCM GunFighter charging handle. Total cost around 800. Prices have come down a bit since then, buy blemished recievers if you can and it doesn't bother you.
 
Couple of points to ponder.

1. Older Colt lowers are hard to find, and bring big bucks.

2. The take-down pin location Colt used to use is different then any other AR-15 lower, and no standard modern upper will fit them except another early Colt upper.

3. I personally think it is a mistake to build a fixed carry handle rifle anymore.
The detachable carry handle is almost indistinguhable from a fixed, and most all AR buyers want the optics mounting option, sooner, or later, if you decide to sell it in the future.

4. Your eyesite and interests will change as you get older, and there will come a time when iron sights will not be as useful or desirable to you as they are now.

Sooner or later, you will want a red dot or a scope.

rc
 
Last edited:
You could buy a Colt 6920, and a BCM (or other) upper in your desired configuration.

Colt doesn't sell stripped lowers so finding one is, as rcmodel mentioned, expensive.
 
I would also go flat top on this type of rifle.

If you want a carry handle consider "Ultra - KISS", maybe an A1 over an A2.

Don't get me wrong I like my A2 for service rifle shooting, but that is not your goal here.

"buy blemished recievers if you can and it doesn't bother you" Good advice and a lot of Blems are not a problem at all. I built a 'Budget-Match' rifle and really concentrated on the budget. Some stuff I had to shop, be patient about and bow out of a few auctions to find the parts at the lowest price. 2 things I didn't find worth even trying to save on were BCG and LPK. Everything else was used. Take-offs or Pre-Owned can help on price.
 
Last edited:
You could still keep your rifle incredibly simple with a flat top upper and a detachable rear sight. You could use a rear A2 post like the ones LMT makes. It would be just as rugged as a solid A2 upper, but more desirable if you decide to modify or sell it. As for the pinned and welded 14.5" barrel, those can make things complicated if the gun ever needs more modification or repairs done. For example, one cannot slide the gas tube off of a barrel with a pinned flash hider. Just some things to consider. I know that's not what you asked for though. So, for what it's worth, I recommend PSA equipment for lower end builds. I've built a lot of them for people, and no one has ever given me any complaints. The BCG is the most important part, so there I recommend a BCM, Spike's, LMT, or similar quality company.

P.S. If you want a horse, get an Anderson lower. They've been going for $40, and are good quality.

Edit: Just saw that you were dead set on that setup. Sorry, just thought I would put my two cents in. For the stock, you could look around the Equipment Exchange on AR15.com. Original Colt stocks like that are on there sometimes. Really, you could find most of what you're looking for there. An assembled A2 upper with that barrel configuration may be hard to find. Delton and BCM do specific uppers like that though. Both are high quality, with BCM seeming to be a bit better.
 
Last edited:
Okay to clear some things up:

I guess a Colt pony lower isn't really necessary. Yes, I am 100% interested in a fixed sight AR. I do not want a flat top. I just don't, and yes, I understand the issues with both that and the 14.5" pinned and welded barrel. Doesn't change my mind.

Thanks for the ideas everyone! This whole AR thing is a whole world unto itself, thank for helping me learn! Looking forward to more ideas here.
 
Check out fulton armory - they stock a lot of retro stuff
http://www.fulton-armory.com/

Also check out nodak spud
http://www.nodakspud.com/

There's nothing wrong with building with an a2 upper. Sure people will tell you that you will want a red dot or a scope and you might at some point...but there is something to be said for a kiss style gun. You see a lot of guys almost come full circle on some of that stuff. They build an ar and run it with iron sights...then they get into red dots and they drop some money on aimpoints and nightforce scopes (both of which are awesome) and then sure enough at some point later on they are building a kiss rifle again. I've done that myself. You're going to build another ar anyways (black rifle disease) so the next one can be the flat top.
 
Also, if you decide later you'd rather have a flat top, just swap the upper. If you're building one, you've got the tools to change an upper receiver.
 
Thanks for the tips! I'm looking at those sights now.

I want that retro look and feel, but with the modern handling of an M4 carbine so I thought making a clone, or rough clone, of the early M4s would be a good idea.

Would it be a good idea to just buy a complete A2 upper then just switch the barrel out to a 14.5" pinned and welded?
 
Last edited:
If you have the tools, start with the barrel you want so you're not paying for two barrels.

If not, you're stuck with what you can find. Although there are 14.5" pinned uppers for sale at various vendors.
 
I don't have the tools. :(

I can't find an A2 upper that comes with a 14.5" pinned and welded barrel. The only ones I've seen are flat tops.
 
Honestly, there is a reason the flat top has taken over. It's far more versatile and therefore useful.

But, you want the rifle a specific way. I can appreciate that, I've got a couple oddball combinations myself for specific needs or wants.

For the cost of a new barrel (or less) you can buy the tools. The only specialty tools required for your build are a barrel nut wrench, upper vise block and buffer tube nut wrench. Everything else is standard hand tools such as a small hammer, roll pin punches and some patience.

Very good tutorials on complete builds are available at www.brownells.com
 
https://www.windhamweaponry.com/shopexd.asp?id=283 $275 for barrel, weld spring, snap ring, delta ring, gas tube and pin, front sight assembly and handguards.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...ti-tool-prod5557.aspx?avs|Make_3=AR-15zz1zzM4 DPMS armorers wrench for 33 bucks.

Charging handle for $19

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...artridge_1=AKK_5xzzx56 mm NATO&avs|Make_3=M16

$140 for a Spikes BCG

100 bucks for a stripper A2 upper

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...6-ejection-port-cover-assembly-prod26121.aspx
 
Last edited:
Okay everyone, I've decided to go with a flat top upper after doing more research and getting talked into it by some people. :)

I plan to run a carry handle w/rear sight, with no plans to change. I was concerned that the weight would be more than an A2 upper with fixed carry handle. Also, I have been thinking that a thin profile lightweight barrel might be a good idea. I still want to stick with a 14.5" pinned and welded barrel, that's one compromise I'm not willing to make LOL!

SO, let me revise my specifications.

I'm looking to build a lightweight M4 style rifle with 14.5" pinned/welded lightweight "pencil" profile barrel with flat top upper and I'll be using the carry handle sights and no optics. As for BCG, brand of upper AND lower, I really don't care so long as it's good quality (for reliability) and doesn't have a bunch of obnoxious lettering or decals on it LOL! I'll also be on the lookout for one of the old style fiberlite CAR-15 buttstocks and will be running the standard plastic M4 handguards.

So, what would you all suggest? Thank you all so much for helping me, it really means a lot! :D
 
Last edited:
I want that retro look and feel, but with the modern handling of an M4 carbine so I thought making a clone, or rough clone, of the early M4s would be a good idea.
Click to expand...

What you seem to be referring to as "early M-4" is the CAR -15, also known as the XM-177

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR56G2JUDrR1w42ztJSXLC6Bd2BEkUHHY5mvtIZgwNU_XNw9GrRFA.jpg

Lots of cool factor to the retros, but for your first AR, I agree with the prevailing recommendation; get a flat top.
 
Cooldill said:
Okay everyone, I've decided to go with a flat top upper after doing more research and getting talked into it by some people.
Click to expand...
Good choice.

I plan to run a carry handle w/rear sight, with no plans to change. I was concerned that the weight would be more than an A2 upper with fixed carry handle.
Click to expand...
Then why not go with a DD A1.5 rear? Lighter and arguably more durable than a carry-handle with A2 adjustments... the A1 adjustment of the DD is bomb-proof, and the sight itself is quite durable, but without the weight of the carry handle.

Also, I have been thinking that a thin profile lightweight barrel might be a good idea. I still want to stick with a 14.5" pinned and welded barrel, that's one compromise I'm not willing to make LOL!
Click to expand...
Lightweight profile is usually the better choice for most people.


I'm looking to build a lightweight M4 style rifle with 14.5" pinned/welded lightweight "pencil" profile barrel with flat top upper and I'll be using the carry handle sights and no optics. As for BCG, brand of upper AND lower, I really don't care so long as it's good quality (for reliability) and doesn't have a bunch of obnoxious lettering or decals on it LOL! I'll also be on the lookout for one of the old style fiberlite CAR-15 buttstocks and will be running the standard plastic M4 handguards.

So, what would you all suggest? Thank you all so much for helping me, it really means a lot!
Click to expand...
I would suggest this. Add the BCG and extended charging handle for $70 and the pinned BCM A2X for $45. Solid upper. Yes, it's mid length instead of carbine. There is very little reason to go with carbine-length gas. If you really are dead-set on carbine, then they have one (albeit not a lightweight profile). Truthfully, I just don't see a point in it. If you had a rifle in mind that is carbine-length, sure. But if you're going from the ground up? Just go mid-length. It's softer, it's just as reliable, and you get more space for your support hand. It's a fantastic upper, and all you need to add is a set of $18 Del-Ton handguards and the DD rear sight for $70.
 
Inebriated said:
Good choice.


Then why not go with a DD A1.5 rear? Lighter and arguably more durable than a carry-handle with A2 adjustments... the A1 adjustment of the DD is bomb-proof, and the sight itself is quite durable, but without the weight of the carry handle.


Lightweight profile is usually the better choice for most people.



I would suggest this. Add the BCG and extended charging handle for $70 and the pinned BCM A2X for $45. Solid upper. Yes, it's mid length instead of carbine. There is very little reason to go with carbine-length gas. If you really are dead-set on carbine, then they have one (albeit not a lightweight profile). Truthfully, I just don't see a point in it. If you had a rifle in mind that is carbine-length, sure. But if you're going from the ground up? Just go mid-length. It's softer, it's just as reliable, and you get more space for your support hand. It's a fantastic upper, and all you need to add is a set of $18 Del-Ton handguards and the DD rear sight for $70.
Click to expand...
That's very tempting, I sure wish they offered than in a carbine length. I want light... by going to a mid length gas system that would be going in the opposite direction, I want a pencil barrel 14.5 on a carbine gas system. Light and short as possible without going NFA, and I like the looks of the carbines.
 
My simple, rugged Colt 6720 pictured up above weighs in at 5.9lbs as pictured. Unless you plan on building it yourself and using the lightest weight parts, your not likely to dip much, if any below the 6lb mark. Basically what I'm saying is: Take a DEEP look into a pencil 16" rifle. Save the 14.5" for when you have more AR experience. Nothing worse than wanting to change something AFTER the muzzle device is made permanent.

Carbine can be easily tuned to function as smoothly as a mid length, with the addition of a simple H3 buffer. That said, mid length gas adds no length to the rifle and virtually no weight (difference between gas tube weights, maybe a few grams). There's really no reason carbine length gas exists anymore on 14.5" or longer tubes.
 
That's very tempting, I sure wish they offered than in a carbine length. I want light... by going to a mid length gas system that would be going in the opposite direction, I want a pencil barrel 14.5 on a carbine gas system. Light and short as possible without going NFA, and I like the looks of the carbines.
Click to expand...

Faxon offers a 14.5" pencil barrel that is right at the 16 oz mark. Couple that with a BCM KMR 10" hand guard and low pro gas block with MBUS sights, You'll be very close to 5 lbs on a standard flat top upper and forged lower with carbine stock.

Going under 5 lbs, however, will get expensive if you do not have the ability to machine parts yourself. Most guys spend well over a grand on featherwieghts. I was able to put one together pretty cheap, but I spent many hours machining parts, some from scratch. This build weighs 5.8 lbs with a fully loaded 30 round magazine:

IMG_1419_zpsegzxlkkf.jpg

But to do it cheap, I had to:

-use a polymer lower
-turn down a $95 JSE M4 barrel to .540" diameter
-make a Ti muzzle brake and pin it
-machine the bolt carrier group
-machine the upper receiver
-machine the hand guard
-make an aluminum selector
-make aluminum receiver extension nut
-make 1 oz mount for the .5 ounce Trijicon MS-04

IMG_1399_zpshvkkbyct.jpg

IMG_20150328_145309338_HDR_zpswtdcpu4w.jpg

Without mag:

IMG_20150328_210834669_zpsvaxohzd4.jpg
 
Jackal said:
Carbine can be easily tuned to function as smoothly as a mid length, with the addition of a simple H3 buffer. That said, mid length gas adds no length to the rifle and virtually no weight (difference between gas tube weights, maybe a few grams). There's really no reason carbine length gas exists anymore on 14.5" or longer tubes.
Click to expand...


I'm willing to bet that the difference between an H and H3 buffer weighs more than the weight difference between mid-length and carbine gas tubes and handguards... :D

OP, I'm not trying to discourage you of force my opinions on you, it's just that mid-length really adds no weight and is just nicer all around. There's a reason it's caught on. I also agree with Jackal on the 16" > 14.5", if you don't have much experience with what you like and don't like in muzzle devices, 14.5" can be a hassle. Not impossible to deal with, just a hassle.

If you're dead-set on a carbine-length lightweight 14.5", look to Daniel Defense. They offer what you want, and it's a barrel that will last likely your entire life. Plus, if you do ever decide you want to go a different route, it won't be difficult to get some money back out of the DD.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

U
  • Locked
AR barrel swap question
Replies
10
Views
660
dprice3844444
D
W
  • Locked
Upper for lightweight AR build
Replies
0
Views
532
wnycollector
W
J
  • Locked
M4gery Build
Replies
19
Views
2K
rcmodel
R
D
I Made an Impulse Buy
2
Replies
46
Views
2K
DMW1116
D
R
  • Locked
Will this AR15 kit meet my needs?
2
Replies
26
Views
1K
Roc_Kor
R
Back
Top