Carbine for Bug-Out kit

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10" barrel loses you about 325fps compared to a 16" but probably more importantly the 10" guns can be finicky to make work reliably.

BSW
True, but this loss in muzzle velocity is irrelevant at self defense and CQB distances. I used 10" barrels in combat and they did fine. If they are "finicky" its because they weren't assembled correctly or assembled with improper/inferior parts.
 
I shot a Keltec sub2000, neat gun, I wouldn't grab it to defend myself/family with. the sights are hard to get behind, or you need to put a dot on top, and then either you spend a whole lot of money, or you can't fold it, defeating the purpose of that gun.

I can only conclude that you are looking for a defensive carbine to carry on the "bug out" and if so, can you honestly come up with a better option then a 10" or 11" barrel on an AR pistol or a full sized AR 15 carbine? 6-7lbs, plus ammo, the whole thing, with a healthy dose of ammo should weigh 9lbs. it is highly effective and accurate for anything you would reasonably do.
if you are afraid of an AR pistol being unreliable but are comfortable with a rimfire. . . you should shoot more. I shoot a fair amount and I will have issues with rimfire ammo quite often. I do not remember the last malfunction in my handguns or AR15's (over 1000rds in each). in the last week I have had two stovepipes and 1 failure to fire in my 10/22

if you want the sub2000, get it, but shoot it a lot. I do not consider a firearm ready for self defense until I have put 500 rds of ammo through it without malfunction.

as recent experience shows with hurricane Irma, gas will vanish before most people realize it, so if you are really concerned with being ready to bug out, keep your gas tank 80% or more all the time, Fuel and bottled water are probably more critical than what type of carbine you choose, but I would NEVER rely on a rimfire for self defense unless it was my only choice.
 
True, but this loss in muzzle velocity is irrelevant at self defense and CQB distances. I used 10" barrels in combat and they did fine. If they are "finicky" its because they weren't assembled correctly or assembled with improper/inferior parts.

I likewise never heard anything but praise from the guys that got them- the CQBR/MK18.

Due to my MOS in the Army I frequently carried only a sidearm, but I got to see, handle, and shoot some great stuff in random SF arms rooms and a couple times see them in action...each team I visited usually had at least a couple CQBR/MK18s. Semi or full auto, 20 yards or 200, they all worked the same as an 14.5 M4. I never heard of gas port or reliability problems on short barrels until I left the Army and joined the internets...

For the average dude on the move, a shorter handier carbine is only an asset. I've spent some time walking around with gear carrying everything from a SAW to an M16 to an M4 to just a pistol and if I had to make the choice now, it'd be my G19 and SBR with 11" barrel and I wouldn't be carrying excessive ammo.
 
48 hours describes pretty much every weekend for us. Generally to go to the farm or back it's just the handgun I always have unless I intend to shoot something other than the 30-30, .22, .410, 12ga I keep there.

Suitcase stays packed, just restocked when we get home. Never thought of calling it a bug out bag though.


Ha ha, I never thought of it this way either. We go to our cabin every weekend (1.5 hour drive) and pack our bags in about 5 minutes. One of the things I bring every time is what many might call a "Bug out Bag" but it's things I use every weekend. On top of a normal emergency kit (sleeping bags, tarp, water purifier, water, a bit of food, hatchet, etc.) it has my weekend carry gun (357 Ruger LCR) and 50 rounds of carry ammo. It also has flashlights, batteries, chargers, a multi-tool, polerized sunglasses, etc that I carry and use at the cabin but don't want to leave there. I could very comfortably live in the woods with this kit for 48 hours.

I think of it as my cabin bag, but in 10 seconds I could grab it and go and have what I need for my family for a while. Since I use it every week it has exactly what I need and I know where everything is.

I would never think about putting a rifle of any sort in this bag. I can concealed carry a handgun and that is all I would need for 48 hours. I don't think America will ever get to the point of where we are all shooting each other or invaded like many think. If that were the case, I'd stay home which is where my guns and many boxes of my favorite cereal are.
 
I'd pick the Sub2000 over a 10/22 for a bug-out, but I was going to mention the CMR and someone beat me to it. That little guy seems like the perfect Bug-out carbine.
 
I am in the final stages of assembling my bug out kit. It is not a bug out bag. The intended purpose of the kit is to allow me and family to survive 48 hours. The kit would be put into a vehicle, so size is a consideration, but as long as I can pick it up to load it, I am not too worried about weight. In the event we had to walk, the kit would be broken down and put into everyone's backpacks, at least the bare essentials.

I would consider adding a light portable carbine to the kit, though not sure I want to.

There are really only 2 choices I am considering, either a Kel Tec Sub 2K that uses Glock 19 magazines, or a Ruger 10/22 takedown.

Advantage of the Kel Tec is it is very portable, quicker to get ready to shoot, and uses same mags and ammo as my Glock. Downside is it feels kind of cheap.

Advantage of the Ruger is that 10/22s are generally known to be reliable (I have 2 others), and 22 ammo is lightweight and won't take up much room. Downside is its just a 22, doesn't use same ammo as my Glock, and is slower to put together. I don't see hunting small game as an advantage, as I probably would not stop to hunt squirrels during the 48 hr bug out period.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure what your "bug out" plan includes, but if you aren't using the 10/22 for hunting game, presumably you're intending it for defense against humans, at least in the context of a bug-out gun. If that's the case, I'd reconsider your choices. A .22LR can kill a person, to be sure, but it's definitely not an ideal choice if your intention is to use it to stop a human threat. As for 48 hours of survival, that should be an easy feat otherwise... my normal weekend trips to the mountains usually go for at least 72 hours.
 
My bug-out "carbine" is my old Super Blackhawk, which fits in the sleeve holster attached between the frame and the lower back of each of my backpacks. I don't consider any gun that must be assembled for use to be "handy". Any carbine that I would carry would be carried openly, for social and legal reasons - I have a Concealed Handgun License, not a Concealed Rifle License... .
 
My bug-out "carbine" is my old Super Blackhawk, which fits in the sleeve holster attached between the frame and the lower back of each of my backpacks. I don't consider any gun that must be assembled for use to be "handy". Any carbine that I would carry would be carried openly, for social and legal reasons - I have a Concealed Handgun License, not a Concealed Rifle License... .

Varies by state I guess. In Georgia, we have Weapons Carry License.
 
I'm not sure what your "bug out" plan includes, but if you aren't using the 10/22 for hunting game, presumably you're intending it for defense against humans, at least in the context of a bug-out gun. If that's the case, I'd reconsider your choices. A .22LR can kill a person, to be sure, but it's definitely not an ideal choice if your intention is to use it to stop a human threat. As for 48 hours of survival, that should be an easy feat otherwise... my normal weekend trips to the mountains usually go for at least 72 hours.

48hrs is harder when you take into account that it is a group size of 6, with children of various ages.

I have decided not to put a carbine in the kit.
 
Ok guys,
I have to clarify something. When I posted on this thread, I made a claim that my previous post had been deleted. taliv (moderator) contacted me and let me know that no posts of mine had been deleted. So it must have been some kind of glitch and no one's fault. So I publically apologize for making the claim. And I thank him for taking the time to research (on his own) that claim and provide a message to me clarifying. This is why we have the best Mods and THR is the best forum.

Now, as you were.....
 
Any consensus on the following questions?

What is considered an acceptable weight of the entire system including ammo?
How much firepower is needed in terms of nr. of rounds?
What are the objectives and basic requirements including a level of versatility (different objectives)?

I am just trying to understand what we need and specially why in order to narrow down the options.
 
I think some good points have been made. The "kit" in concept is the bare essentials needed to "grab and go" in a hurry. I agree a disassembled rifle would likely be unhelpful. I think I will ditch the idea of a carbine for the kit. If there is more time, then I would grab an AR.

Hmmm if you carry a pistol all the time, then having a disassembled AR in your kit allows you to carry it out without anyone seeing it. You still have the pistol for self defense until you get the AR snapped together. If packed in a way you can get it quickly you or someone in the group could assemble it if needed before you leave, or once your out of site. So I can see the validity of having it stored.

Or it could be a spare as you grab a rifle or a shotgun.

I guess to me, the question is how do you stage your gear, how much time do you have and what are you taking.

IMHO, the so called Bug Out Bag should be ready as a grab and go item. If you have time, then a few more bags or plastic tubs could be thrown in the truck or truck of your car. The question is, how prepared are you, what are you preparing for and where are you coming from and going to.

In my own case, my primary goal is to stay where I am, usually home. Next is to get home, or to other family members. Finally, the last resort is a bug out location. First choice traveling is via truck, second via Harley, last via foot.

In each case how I handle what stays and what goes is dependent on how I stay or go.

In all cases water, self defense items (e.g. Pistol, mags, long gun), fire maker, shelter, and then food are the basics. Some like the truck can serve multiple purposes. A cap on a truck can be a shelter, and it can secure gear. The truck can be transportation, shelter, and a tool to recharge com gear (phone, ham radio, etc)

Btw this is so long as the recent hurricanes and this discussion have me reevaluating my plans. Thinking on what I'd have done if I was in Texas or Florida and had to evacuate, as staying is my preferred option. In the case of Florida, I see having gear ready to throw in the truck, and extra gas cans working well if one left early. I see walking as a horrible option. Etc etc
 
Any consensus on the following questions?

What is considered an acceptable weight of the entire system including ammo?
How much firepower is needed in terms of nr. of rounds?
What are the objectives and basic requirements including a level of versatility (different objectives)?

I am just trying to understand what we need and specially why in order to narrow down the options.

The .22WMR carbine I mention on the first page has 33 rounds on the gun. I usually keep another two boxes of 50 each with it, if I travel and don't think I'll do range time with friends. Range time changes ammo needs in a large way.

That gun is 7 lbs full up. The concept I made up is a good one, but overweight. If I had started with a gun I didn't already own, I'm sure I would have picked a lighter gun and the weight would be brought down 1/2 to 3/4 lb.

Of course my choice tends to be a bolt gun. If my choice were a centerfire, then 60 rounds of 5.56x45 or 40 rounds of 7.62x51 would be my likely carry out.

For me, it's very similar to what was mentioned up thread about going out of town with a handgun. When I plan to go out of town for work, I take along a box of 50 for my carry gun just in case. Two magazines minimum are with that gun if it is an autoloader.

Why do I take that much extra ammo? I will likely never need it, but an extra box (handgun) is a small weight penalty for me just wanting to bring it along. My rifle numbers are a little different just due to cartridge size and weight.
 
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Any consensus on the following questions?

What is considered an acceptable weight of the entire system including ammo?
How much firepower is needed in terms of nr. of rounds?
What are the objectives and basic requirements including a level of versatility (different objectives)?

I am just trying to understand what we need and specially why in order to narrow down the options.

Depends on your situation. My work is a 30 minute walk to home, I don't bother keeping a rifle and ammo in the car.

If I was working across town (decent sized city) I'd want a rifle and 4-6 magazines. I think most confrontations are going to be defused by you having a rifle and appearing to be confident in using it, making the actual expenditure of ammo relatively rare. Robbers prefer victims that aren't armed, and especially those that don't have a weapon that outclasses theirs in both wounding potential and ability to actually hit. Why mess with you when they can pillage someone who can't fight back effectively? They might get hurt.

BSW
 
Care to elaborate on this? What would be 'excessive ammo' IRT your firearms choice?

3-4 AR mags at most. 4 mags for G19. There's more important things for me to have in my pack than ammo, or a even carbine for that matter, when I need to survive for 48 hours.

If it isn't a societal collapse (I already live where I need to be), I'm really just heading to a hotel. If it's more a natural disaster, I'm driving further to a hotel or the woods.
 
Depends on your situation. My work is a 30 minute walk to home, I don't bother keeping a rifle and ammo in the car.

If I was working across town (decent sized city) I'd want a rifle and 4-6 magazines. I think most confrontations are going to be defused by you having a rifle and appearing to be confident in using it, making the actual expenditure of ammo relatively rare. Robbers prefer victims that aren't armed, and especially those that don't have a weapon that outclasses theirs in both wounding potential and ability to actually hit. Why mess with you when they can pillage someone who can't fight back effectively? They might get hurt.

BSW

If the idea is to be safe the one fight that is 100% safe is the one you don't fight on.
So perhaps a decent amount of time should be spent in thinking about routes and tactics to avoid confrontation.
But if confrontation is unavoidable then the most important weapon here is information and proper tactics. Information comes from
observation and being in communication with others or getting reliable information from others.
Perhaps with some careful planning others can coordinate like groups who volunteer in times of crisis.
After all the whole idea behind prepping is to do this in advance, not just prepping equipment but organization, protocols and tactics.
When the hurricane is on the radar is often too late to prepare and achieve much effectively. One should instead flee or hide to a safe place.
Intelligence will allow you to coordinate perimeters and also put distance between threats and your position. Distance is one of the best forms of protection found in many places.

But if all that is not possible and we cannot avoid violence no matter how hard we try then the key is speed and lethal / brutal force.
Small arms will not work against any organized military or one will die for nothing but perhaps in a situation WORL, might be necessary as soon one understands
who one is fighting with and how to be somewhat effective, yet again the importance of intelligence.

I would say one should think about a weapons system one can be faster with and get a high hit ratio shooting in any situations. This is
more important than the caliber itself. Maybe that is the 5.56 or maybe that is the 5.7 that allows for more firepower with the same weight.
Most thugs will not expose much meat after seeing others who know how to use a firearm effectively and fast.
3 or 4 magazines will not last long but also more is serious gear. We can count fights they are over in seconds but if they go over a couple of minutes
then one needs more magazines. Perhaps this is where a smaller casing will have an edge but then again if we expect o use distance we want
a caliber that can be effective at a distance. I think the 5.56 or 6.8 is a wise choice in general. still will not discard smaller cartriges specially
if they can be in smaller and lighter magazines or twice the capacity in the same size.

I suggest if you have to do lets say 20 miles on foot between lets say work and your house outside town then fill out a backup that you can carry
and do that route. If that was easy then increase the weight if you feel you might need more equipment and if that was hard then try to decrease it.
After you consider what you need in the bag including some water, food, clothing, lights and other essentials this might tell you how much more
you can afford in terms of personal protection and a weapons system. If you carry a pistol also bring it with you.

In the end if one is going to do this they better start walking because being fit is going to be a big part of making it back home or not.

I know a lot of preppers who cannot walk 20 or 30 miles yet they are talking about going downstate to the hunting cabin. Just wait until
you don't have a car or cannot use it and you start walking. Internet miles are easy I guess.

BTW I cannot do the things I did when I was 20. Those will certainly kill me today but I do walk as much as I can. I think that is the only
great thing that I might take longer but I feel I could walk for a month if I had to.
 
I likewise never heard anything but praise from the guys that got them- the CQBR/MK18.

Due to my MOS in the Army I frequently carried only a sidearm, but I got to see, handle, and shoot some great stuff in random SF arms rooms and a couple times see them in action...each team I visited usually had at least a couple CQBR/MK18s. Semi or full auto, 20 yards or 200, they all worked the same as an 14.5 M4. I never heard of gas port or reliability problems on short barrels until I left the Army and joined the internets...

For the average dude on the move, a shorter handier carbine is only an asset. I've spent some time walking around with gear carrying everything from a SAW to an M16 to an M4 to just a pistol and if I had to make the choice now, it'd be my G19 and SBR with 11" barrel and I wouldn't be carrying excessive ammo.
Yes, I used both versions of the MK18 (LMT and DD) with a variety of different ammo %%, 62, 75, 77 grain) and never had any issues with reliability.
 
IMHO the KelTec, common ammo with your sidearm, light and cheap, easy to use.
+1 on the KelTec SU-16C it is perfect for your needs. 25" OAL folded (it fits into a tennis racquet case), weights 4.5 lbs, uses AR mags, reliable, and can engage from 1 to 400 meters. It is not a battle rifle, but for 48 hrs it will work. I love mine, it has over 4K rounds thru her and is good to go.
 
can a keltec sub2000 be trusted on a fight? I am asking because we got a few of those 9mm here but we all got problems and had to send
them back to the factory eventually so not sure they are up to the task. for starters the section of the barrel is really thin for caliber.
they heat up fast and perhaps that is one of them bulged. IMHO, I think they are great for ranch, backpacking but not for a fight.
 
1stmarine. You're so right. About ability to walk long distance and carry heavy packs. Internet miles and real miles are awfully different. I bet most people here haven't walked a mile in a long time.

As I read your post, I also wondered if things are so bad that you're walking and getting into gunfights, how many can you survive? In other words, if you make it through the first one, how much energy, ammo, etc do you have left for the next one? For a trained military or even LE it's a lot different, than your internet survivalist, and how many cases of PTSD do we see in our vets and officers who have been in battle or a shooting? So how will it affect you mentally as well as physically? Few civilians have ever seen a gun pulled in anger let alone someone shot. Killing someone or even possibly killing someone isn't an easy thing in reality. And it's not trivial. Worse it's seldom discussed.

Playing keyboard Rambo is a cool exercise, but being smart and surviving in the real world is totally different. In a real SHTF situation, there are no points, there are no bragging rights, there is surviving or not. In FL, many sat on highways, panicked and got lucky. Imagine the possible horrible possibilities of all of those sitting in traffic trying to flee if something else were to occur during the backup.
 
1stmarine. You're so right. About ability to walk long distance and carry heavy packs. Internet miles and real miles are awfully different. I bet most people here haven't walked a mile in a long time.

As I read your post, I also wondered if things are so bad that you're walking and getting into gunfights, how many can you survive? In other words, if you make it through the first one, how much energy, ammo, etc do you have left for the next one? For a trained military or even LE it's a lot different, than your internet survivalist, and how many cases of PTSD do we see in our vets and officers who have been in battle or a shooting? So how will it affect you mentally as well as physically? Few civilians have ever seen a gun pulled in anger let alone someone shot. Killing someone or even possibly killing someone isn't an easy thing in reality. And it's not trivial. Worse it's seldom discussed.

Playing keyboard Rambo is a cool exercise, but being smart and surviving in the real world is totally different. In a real SHTF situation, there are no points, there are no bragging rights, there is surviving or not. In FL, many sat on highways, panicked and got lucky. Imagine the possible horrible possibilities of all of those sitting in traffic trying to flee if something else were to occur during the backup.


I don't really know where this is all coming from. I am not trying to play internet commando. I am not trying to get into any fight with anyone. I am not trying to walk with a heavy pack 30 miles. I am just trying to put together a box with the essentials that a family with children might need to evacuate by car in the event of some type of event, probably bad weather.

You don't have to be a survivalist to need to evacuate before Hurricane Irma. Sheesh. I feel like the thread is going off the deep end.
 
My response wasn't to you as I offered my thoughts earlier. It was more generally a response to the responses after who aren't looking at your needs. It's probably a bit of frustration towards all of the online warrioriors.

In my own case I carry my EDC all the time. With all of the insanity going on, I put my AR in the truck if I'm going out of town along with several mags. I do it as I'm concerned about ANTIFA and BLM blocking roads and attacking folks trapped.
So like you, my goal isn't to play soldier but to protect myself any those around me if needed.

That said, part of my comment was to hopefully offer some thoughts. It sounds like you have been thinking which is great. But as I mentioned, FL and Harvey got me thinking about things I have put as low possibilities. They may still be minor risks in my area, but still worth thinking about.

So I guess, having been shot at at work, seen the Pentagon burn, and smelled the bodies smolder, maybe I'm a bit edgy right now. Again, no intention to hijack your thread, just offering things to consider as you figure out what works. Oh and that more than one option may may sense.
 
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