Carbon steel renaissance?

[JVoutilainen]

At a glance it seems that knife related threads are mostly concentrating on stainless steel ”tactical” knives. I have used many and still carry one (spyderco) in an urban environment, but I have not found one that could really compete with traditional carbon steel blades when it comes to edge retention and overall performance. Also, I have never found rust to be a problem, even on extended camping trips - in any kind of weather (and we have them all).

Personally I use a carbon steel damascus knife at work (woodcrafts). I know that most people would find the price of the blade absurd, but considering that it will literally last a lifetime of normal use and decades in extremely active use (such as mine), I consider it a bargain. Furthermore, it is always a special feeling using a knife that is both stunningly beautiful and extremely effective – a knife that has been made not by slave labor in china, but by a dedicated and proud professional in my own country.

Personally I think it is absolutely ridiculous to buy a 50$ knife for active use, especially if you are going to use it on hunting or camping trips. It is interesting that people are willing to use hundreds or even thousands of dollars on a gun - that is a mass produced item - but on the same time are shocked if a handmade knife costs a few hundred dollars. Considering that it takes roughly one eight hour day to make even a basic model the price should be considered low, by any standars.

Ok, I am ranting, but I did have a question.

We have something one might call a renaissance going on in Finland when it comes to handmade knives. How are things in the US?

 

[hso]

We have something one might call a renaissance going on in Finland when it comes to handmade knives. How are things in the US?

Waaaaaay ahead.

Just search for the following names here - Valkman, Blacktoe, Acawi, Fowler, Davison, Breed.

Custom knifemaking has been going strong for over 20 years and the ranks of custom knifemakers continues to grow here in the U.S.

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/
http://www.knifemakersguild.com/
http://www.proknifemakers.com/

 

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

Thank you for the links. Good looking stuff! I see they like fancy pattern welding in the States also . Not functional, but people like to pay for it.

Do you think there is any possibility that this "industry" will break into the mainstream, considering that cheap mass produced knives seem to dominate markets almost completely? I know that there is a growing number of people who collect these knives, but how many are purchased for actual use?

Here is a link to one prominent blade smith in my country, just to give you an example of what I mean by "renaissance".

http://www.kp-art.fi/jt/index_eng.html

 

[hso]

I'm familiar with Scandinavian and Northern European knifemakers. The Eastern European knifemakers have been making a strong showing in the past couple of years also.

As to the industry breaking into the mainstream, your question has been answered for some time here in the U.S. Our manufacturers have been collaborating with custom knifemakers for over 15 years. Look at the knives Bob Terzuola has made and the knives designed by him that have been manufactured by the likes of Spyderco and others. Today it is as common for a collaboration with a custom maker to be found on the pages of a knife manufacturer's catalog as an in-house design. Go waaaay back to Al Mar's work designing for Gerber and then his own company. Custom maker, custom designs, mass market manufacturer all rolled into one.

As to whether the knives get purchased for actual use, I suppose like many expensive or collectible cars, some never leave the garage, others just get shown off at shows, some see recreational weekend "drives" and others are used as daily drivers for the joy of handling something extraordinary. I carry a small Sebenza just about. I may also carry a $500+ custom. We may slaughter and dress game or stock with a $15 mora or a $150 custom. Other's here carry moderately expensive knives as every day carry knives while some think any EDC above $50 is silly.

The folks here in THR/NFW are big fans of the pukko and the mora.

 

[Kingcreek]

I have dressed and skinned antelope, deer, and elk with my Bob Dozier folding hunter D2 (approx value $400) and I have several fixed blade customs that see regular use because I really, really like top level performance from a knife especially when I've got a lot of knife work to do. I've also happily used Moras, Buck 110s, Opinels, and other less costly knives that perform better than thier price might indicate. My everyday garden and chore knife is a handforged Roselli carpenter's knife with lots of patina and rust stains but a wicked sharp edge.
Re a Carbon vs Stainless discussion. I prefer a good carbon steel but some of the stainless is pretty darn good too. Average Joe shopping for a knife at Walmart probably doesn't even know the difference. As for the renaissance? I think serious users have been focused on carbon and high quality steels for quite a long time, certainly in the handmade knives.

 

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

The folks here in THR/NFW are big fans of the pukko and the mora.

Mora...aahhh, I like them, but rarely use them anymore. Very easy to sharpen, though!

It is probably unsurprising that I am a fan of puukko-knives also, but perhaps not as die-hard as many. Blade smithing is a hobby of mine and it is more fun to explore different possibilities than to concentrate on a single one.

There has been collaboration for a long time in Finland, as well. My point is, do you think it is possible for true handmade knives - not "hybrids" - to hit mainstream big time? As I mentioned earlier, it is typical that people are absolutely "shocked" about the price tag on these items. On the other hand exactly the same people see nothing wrong in paying hundreds of dollars (or euros) on a cell phone that has been produced in seconds with a production cost of 5$. Do you see that attitude changing?

Bob Terzuola

Very nice. Thank you, again!

 

[hso]

Do you see that attitude changing?

No, nor would I expect it to. A hand made knife is going to always be expensive because it is a piece of skilled craft work from the hands of an artisan. It also represents a piece of equipment that has less application today for urban settings than that fancy smart phone. Perhaps a wilderness adventurer or hunter would pay for the improved hand made knife, but not the average mass transit riding commuter.

 

[JVoutilainen]

Kingcreek,

Have you tried carbon steel damascus? Highly recommend it if you have not. Even though I have studied some metallurgy and I have put csd-blades under the microscope I still have not figured out why they function as well as they do. Maybe someone here knows the answer.

 

[Todd A]

How are things in the US?

Pretty good.... But I have always been a carbon steel guy. 99% of my knives are older slipjoints made from 1095, but I have a few Handmades.

All made from O1, from JK Handmade knives.



John is a great guy, and a good friend. I had him make on for my son. When it arrived I found that John had (without telling me) made a matching firesteel and added a firesteel pocket to my son's pocket sheath.

 

[Todd A]

but how many are purchased for actual use?

All of mine are. But John's knives are meant for use. Nothing fancy, just working knives.

I carry one or two everyday. And to me they really were not that expensive, considering the value for your money.

This is my daily carry knife..



What it looked like brand new..




And what I just had to do to it shortly after I got it... Just to make sure it won't fail in the woods.

 

[hso]

Whether "damascus" works better than carbon steel is hotly debated with most agreeing that pattern welded steel is no better than properly heat treated carbon steel. There's so much mythology around "damascus" that it's difficult to sort truth from fiction.

 

[JTW Jr.]

It is interesting that people are willing to use hundreds or even thousands of dollars on a gun - that is a mass produced item - but on the same time are shocked if a handmade knife costs a few hundred dollars.

It is all a matter of their perspective. If you are a knife guy , you understand the details , the quality of the workmanship , the materials and the level of finish. Some can't appreciate it , can't fault them for that. Some don't care as long as it somewhat cuts , cant fault them for that.

Shows like Blade in Atlanta exist because there is a huge market for handmade knives , custom knives , mid tech knives & semi-production knives. In the US it is indeed alive and well , depending on the when & where some markets stand out more than others. Some places its tacticals , or forged bowies , hunters , or even slip joints. But it is alive and kicking here in the USofA.

As with just about everything , you want to get your $$$ worth. When you break it down on a daily basis ( times used divided by price ) and compare it to a firearm , a hand made knife is a screaming deal.

I call it SPD , Smiles Per Dollar , how much pleasure will it bring you over how much time ?



I don't get wrapped up in the high carbon , stainless or Damascus debates , they can all work , they call all fail. The proof is in the pudding , the maker , heat treat , steel and design are all individual ingredients in the pudding.

I ain't into safe queens , nothing against those that are , but in use that is where these handmade beauties shine. Don't let the pudding spoil , take the pudding out of the fridge ! Knifemaker abuse is having a knife sit in a safe or drawer somewhere

Anyone who claims forging is better than stock removal , stock removal is better than forging , high carbon is better than stainless or stainless is better than high carbon , has far too narrow a view on things and would be better off to broaden their vision.

Like it ? Buy it ! Use it , love it & maintain it.

 

[bikerdoc]

Like it ? Buy it ! Use it , love it & maintain it.

You forgot or make it.

 

[JTW Jr.]

Yeah , I forgot that didnt I ...... I did that as well , made myself one carbon , one SS , one D2 , and next one in carbon damascus.

 

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

Well, I do not agree with the most, then . I think there is something about carbon steel damascus that makes it more efficient in cutting. High nickel content versions (and not laminated) are good for show and with soft materials, mostly because of the serrated edge.

I should have added from the beginning that, naturally, the difference is not because of the material alone. Furthermore, etching can damage the blade and mask its full potential. The one that I use has not been etched and the pattern is not visible, at all.

As I mentioned earlier, I have put these blades under the microscope (when properly sharpened) and found that the edge is not serrated, which makes me think that the difference must be related to how these blades can be heat treated and the crystalline structure that results.

About the original issue; I have noticed that there is a "awakening" of sorts going on in Finland, when it comes to everything handmade. It appears that the "average Joe" is not that average, after all - as I have always suspected. I have found that explaining (and demonstrating) the difference between mass produced and the handmade is not that difficult and people are actually quite eager to learn. I think there is a degree of nonconstructive elitism involved with the handmade knife scene. These are only tools, after all.

JTW jr.

Knifemaker abuse is having a knife sit in a safe or drawer somewhere

Agreed, 100%

Don't get me wrong here, I am not a fanatic and I do use knives of all kinds. For example, I often carry a spyderco (some big and old model with 100% steel construction), which I like very very much. The edge was originally serrated, but I got rid of that. Although the material seems a bit on the soft side (and no, I did not "burn" the blade when I modified it) I think it is actually pretty decent when it comes to cutting wood.

Todd A,

Good looking knives! I like the functional looking sheaths.

Here is the one I usually take with me when I go camping



Blade is carbon steel (0.8%) and the handle is stacked birch bark with silver. I made the belt myself. My mother gave this puukko-knife to me at my 30th birthday, can you imagine that!

 

[Mp7]

..

fixing office breakfast with a Marttiini right now.

good thread.

 

[Zeke/PA]

In my knifemaking days I used quite a lot of O-1 for my blades.
Exotic metals have a following I'm sure but in reality, a knife built from O-1 is all the knife that anyone needs.

 

[kamagong]

My point is, do you think it is possible for true handmade knives - not "hybrids" - to hit mainstream big time?

There are plenty of people who appreciate custom, hand-made knives. I don't think this group will ever become mainstream though as it is much too difficult for the non-enthusiast. Why waste time and effort researching and ordering a custom knife when a $50 knife from Wal-Mart will do the same thing?

I have a couple of custom knives myself. There is no comparison whatsoever, these two knives blow away everything else I own except when it comes to affordability. But it wasn't easy getting these knives. Not only are they more expensive, but I also had to wait several months for them. I just don't think the average knife user cares to go through that process, not when a knife is nothing more than a simple tool to him.

 

[Slamfire]

Custom knife makers have pushed factory knives to improve. Forty years ago there were not that many custom knife makers, factory knives were old patterns. And not made of very good steels.

Now, the best factory knives are outstanding. And there are a lot of custom knife makers. Life is good

High quality stainless steels take and hold an edge better than the older stuff, almost as good as 1095.

Carbon steel is wonderful stuff except that it rusts. Live near the ocean and you won't want anything made of carbon steel.

 

[JVoutilainen]

SlamFire1,

I do not have any problems with rust, even though I have used carbon steel knives in demanding conditions. The problem with rust on a carbon steel blade is, or should be, mostly aesthetical since surface rust can be removed quite easily. Also, parafin oil can be used to protect the blade from rust.

Agreed, salt water and carbon steel could be a problematic combination

 

[JVoutilainen]

Here is one of my knives being soaked in a stream on this years camping trip to Lemmenjoki national park Inari. That means arctic conditions and lots of water...but no salt!



And it did not rust although I only wiped most of the water of the blade after taking this photo.

Oh yeah, and I almost fell head first into the river when taking this

 

[usmc1371]

My EDC for the last ten years has been a benchmade Mel Pardue designed knife that I love. I don't own any really custom made cutters yet but from the work I have seen posted on this fourm I think I will have one or five in the future. I think the costom market is pushing some of the mainstream companies to use better steels or atleast some thing besides AUS-8/ 440. I just picked up a couple spydercos in ZDP-189 and one S90V that are proving to be good cutters. The more I see the costom work of others the more I wan't to give knife making a try... but I hear its addicting.

 

[JVoutilainen]

The more I see the costom work of others the more I wan't to give knife making a try... but I hear its addicting.

Yep, it is. And the frustrating thing about knife making is that once you have made about a dozen you will probably think "now, this was not so hard - anyone can do this". But, after the second dozen you will realise that this is no small mountain to climb and that you know close to nothing.

If you start making knives I recommend that you start studying the basics of metallurgy at the same time. Also, taking some art classes might be in order...so that you do not have to spend the next two years learning about form and design the hard way

 

[Todd A]

Todd A,

Good looking knives! I like the functional looking sheaths.

Thanks..I like them.

As to the sheaths.........

John is a full-time knifemaker, not a custom sheath maker. So his sheath's are very minimal. They work great, but nothing fancy. The cost of a Kydex one is included in his knife prices. Leather only usually adds five dollars.

He could farm out his sheath's as many knifemakers do. But that would increase the cost for his customers. Or ,as some other knifemakers do, only offer sheaths as an option. Which again would add to the cost.

 

[hso]

JVoutilainen,

Good looking knife. What is the handle material? Flame Birch?