Carjacking, if it were you while carrying?

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rlj174

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In broad daylight after parking his Mercedes in a mall parking lot in Atlanta yesterday, the driver was approached by a man who stuck a gun in his chest and told to drop his keys. After dropping his keys and wallet, the suspect in question picked up his keys (left the wallet) and promptly stole his Mercedes. The events described can be seen in the video link below.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Rv2PFBMlk

You can see the victim run away after the suspect was going to his car, which was probably a good idea on his part.

I'm new at conceal carrying and I'm not sure what I would have done. I possibly may have been so freaked out that I would run too.

After watching the video, the victim could have hidden between cars and if he/she was carrying could have possibly stopped the victim.

Whats the right and wrong thing to do in this situation? Count your blessing you did't get shot and run to get help or try and stop the suspect/thug form stealing your car?


The link to the news story can be found here:
http://www.11alive.com/story/news/l...s-leaves-lingering-safety-questions/79646816/
 
Tough call when the crook has the drop on you.

If I can't draw, compliance may be the only option. UNLESS I'm being ordered to drive the car or get into the car.
 
I'm not talking about when he was approached, nothing you can do unless your weapon was in you hand. However afterwards, when the suspect left and went to the car, got in and pulled away, there was ample time to "do something". I'm just not sure what I would have done. Runaway to safety seems like a good option.
 
I don't know the legalities but my common sense tells me that no car is worth my life. I'm leaving in a hurry to call the police then sorting it out with insurance.
 
Carjacking is the stealing of a car through the use or threat of violence that would be reasonably expected to cause great bodily harm or death.

If you threaten to maim or kill me (and create the reasonable perception of the ability to do so), I'm going to take you at your word... and shoot you until you're no longer and immediate threat.
 
I don't know the legalities but my common sense tells me that no car is worth my life. I'm leaving in a hurry to call the police then sorting it out with insurance.
Armed robbery isn't a property crime. it's a crime against a person (the owner of the property).

NO plan I have ever had, have now or will ever have in the future was, is or will be premised on the good judgment and basic decency of an armed robber.

If you've got a weapon and SAY you mean to do me harm, there's no reason to doubt doubt your words or intentions. At that point the application of overwhelming deadly force, without hesitation or letup until the threat is neutralized is the proper response.
 
This would be a great post in the "Legal" section. There are usually some very interesting an lively discussions there regarding the legality of such things, as well has how they may play out in court.
 
If someone were to sneak up on me with no warning and demand my car, it's his. Property isn't worth risking your life for IMO. Let the cops and insurance company deal with it.

OTOH if I saw someone coming up to me looking suspicious and I had time to react, and I were carrying, it would likely be a whole different scenario, especially if my wife were also threatened.
 
This would be a great post in the "Legal" section. There are usually some very interesting an lively discussions there regarding the legality of such things, as well has how they may play out in court.
Mods. feel free to move to the legal section. I'd like to know the repercussions of hiding between the cars as he was driving away and shooting. I'm guessing at that point the law says let him go......now if it was during the confrontation or when he was walking to the car it might be a different scenario.

FWIW, watching the video (40 seconds) shows almost all the action..........
 
Two friends of my brother were carjacked. I had played volley ball with them at a 4th of July picnic the year before. The carjacker took their car, money and their lives. Probably did not want live witnesses.

Then, much later, there was the seperate and unrelated carjacking, rape, torture and murder of another couple in Knoxville: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

If it appears the carjacker is just going to take the car and go, as in the carjacking in the youtube incident (opening post), I might be disposed to let it go (try to remember to remember as many details as possible for the responding officers).

If it appears the carjacker wants more than the car, I might be disposed to consider it a kill-or-be-killed situation. I believe current state law allows lethal force in defense against a carjacking presuming there is a danger to life or limb.
 
Initially I was going to reply that ...

You try to keep your "Situational Awareness" active as much as possible and learn to look for warning signs so you can try not to end up in a position where someone can just "stick a gun in your chest." Criminals are very good at gaining access to do something like that, though, so avoidance is not possible in every case.

If someone has a gun pulled on you, you are largely STUCK. "Drawing to a drawn gun" is a losing hand no matter how you play it. Now if your assailant is extremely close and you are very good at hand-to-hand extreme close quarters fighting and you really think you MUST fight or die, then you may be able to disarm him, but a very skilled individual would call that a total roll of the dice, at best.

Your gun is not the only "tool in your toolbox." You've lived this long on your social skills -- i.e. your ability to communicate, understand people's intentions, and express your own. If someone has totally dominated the situation by covering you with a weapon, that's a good time to give them what they say they want and look for the safest path out. Stuff can be replaced, and MOST criminals aren't looking for a murder rap, just some free stuff. This is NOT SAFE. Some criminals will shoot someone for the most tenuous reasons. But it's a better bet than trying to "slap leather" and being shot, or playing cutsie games and getting shot, or playing tough and getting shot ... (see the pattern?).

In this case, the guy did EXACTLY the right thing. He is alive. His stuff can easily be replaced. He didn't fire a shot that killed a bystander. He didn't even fire a shot that ended another man's life (the robber) with all the attendant unpleasantness (police, arrest, lawyers' costs, court, depression, mental anguish, etc.) that comes with that.

He's fine and he's free and life absolutely goes on.

It *might* not have gone that way for him, but by the time he realized he was in trouble, there was very little else he could have done. The criminal could have killed him outright, and there's some infinitesimal chance that he could have drawn a gun and defended himself before that happened. But it didn't. This time, everything went as well as it could have gone.

I'm not talking about when he was approached, nothing you can do unless your weapon was in you hand. However afterwards, when the suspect left and went to the car, got in and pulled away, there was ample time to "do something". I'm just not sure what I would have done. Runaway to safety seems like a good option.

BUT -- Ok, this changes your question a lot.

You do not have the right to use lethal force on someone for HAVING committed a crime. You do not have the right to use lethal force on someone who is LEAVING the scene of a crime. You do not have the right to use lethal force on someone for vengeance, pride, honor, or to try and recover stolen goods (with one exception in Texas, at night, etc).

You have the right to use potentially lethal force to STOP SOMEONE FROM KILLING YOU. (Or from gravely injuring you, or a couple of other extremely serious felonies.) That's IT. If someone is leaving in the car they just stole from you, they AREN'T still trying to kill you. If someone is fleeing from your home with your TV, they AREN'T still trying to kill you.

Doing something? What COULD you do? Fire a shot? Your justification under the law for using deadly force on another human being is GONE, if he's leaving. You are now committing assault with a deadly weapon and/or attempted murder. It really is that black and white.

What could you do? Get to safety, call the police, call your insurance agent, call for a cab. Sit down on the curb and throw up for a while (which is probably what most folks will do, once the adrenaline starts leaving). Thank (whomever you wish) that you're still alive and unharmed.
 
Shooting at the guy as he's getting in your car and driving away would likely be a bad idea, the threat against your life has ceased. Deadly force would no longer be warranted.
 
I had a church youth leader as a kid who drilled into us the idea that you can make a lot of decisions in advance. Things like whether you are going to use alcohol/drugs, have sex, etc can be decided on in advance of the event where you are presented with the opportunity. It makes it a lot easier to make good choices down the road.

This works to a large extent in situations like this IMHO. Personally, I would never shoot someone to save my car or my wallet nor would I put my life at risk to retain them. Even if threatened from a distance with a knife I would be inclined to hand over my wallet or keys. Obviously if I felt the vibe that the perpetrator was going to kill me anyway that would change things.

Now, put my kids in the backseat of said car or have the perpetrator try and force me or a family member into the passenger seat for a ride and my fight reflex is going to make completely different choices.
 
Quote:
"You have the right to use potentially lethal force to STOP SOMEONE FROM KILLING YOU. (Or from gravely injuring you, or a couple of other extremely serious felonies.) That's IT. If someone is leaving in the car they just stole from you, they AREN'T still trying to kill you. If someone is fleeing from your home with your TV, they AREN'T still trying to kill you.

Doing something? What COULD you do? Fire a shot? Your justification under the law for using deadly force on another human being is GONE, if he's leaving. You are now committing assault with a deadly weapon and/or attempted murder. It really is that black and white."


Thanks. Thats what I was looking for....I suppose you could shoot the tires out however running for cover and keeping safe would be the best option.
 
I suppose you could shoot the tires out however running for cover and keeping safe would be the best option.

NO. Shooting the tires out is not something you "could" do. You're considering firing a GUN in a public place. That's a REALLY BAD thing to do. Bullets go places. They go far, fast. They skip and bounce off of pavements, hard metal parts, etc., and go on to find a final target in something or someone.

Now, you wouldn't want that to happen, and you would almost certainly NEVER do such a thing, but it is important to understand that the law does not recognize much, if any, difference between firing a gun at someone, or at the car they're driving. It's still using deadly force against them. And if you don't have a clear legal justification for shooting them, you don't have a clear legal justification for shooting AT them.


Let's look at it this way:
1) Shooting someone is a crime.
2) Shooting AT someone is a crime.
3) Shooting a gun in a public place/town/city is a crime.
4) Shooting a gun such that your bullets go somewhere which would endanger the public is a crime.
5) Drawing and presenting a firearm in a threatening way is a crime.

If you are faced with a serious, credible, immediate threat of death or grave bodily injury you may be FORCED to shoot someone, shoot at someone, fire a gun in a public place, and fire a gun in a way which could endanger the public(*), and of course, draw and present that gun in a threatening way, in order to defend your life.

The law in all states recognizes that this is something you may be FORCED to do, or die. The law provides that if this happens to you you can enter an "affirmative defense," which means "Yes, I did these things which are against the law, AND HERE'S WHY..." The threat against your life can be accepted by the state as forcing you to commit these unlawful acts, and thus you can be found not to be guilty of a) the murder of your assailant, b) aggravated assault (or assault with a deadly weapon) against your assailant, c) discharging a firearm in a public place, d) negligence in how/when/where you fired your gun(*), and so forth.

Yes, I did those things, but I had to because I had a reasonable belief that my life was at an end if I did not do so.

You cannot stand before a judge and jury and say, "I had a reasonable belief that my life was at an end if I did not shoot out the bad guy's tires."




(*) -- And this one's pretty limited. Even if you are completely exonerated of any wrongdoing in shooting to defend yourself, you still own every bullet that leaves your gun. A round that hits a bystander is a liability you DO NOT WANT. It would be worth a whole mountain of insurance forms, and even the complete loss of your favorite set of wheels, not to have to live with (and deal with, and defend yourself if you) accidentally shooting someone. And just because the criminal trial may not find you guilty, the civil trials for that wrongful death or injury will likely crush you.
 
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Let him have it. That's what my insurance is for.

The gun is to save the life of myself or someone I'm with. Not property. That can all be replaced.
 
If someone were to sneak up on me with no warning and demand my car, it's his. Property isn't worth risking your life for IMO. Let the cops and insurance company deal with it.

OTOH if I saw someone coming up to me looking suspicious and I had time to react, and I were carrying, it would likely be a whole different scenario, especially if my wife were also threatened.
This x 1000.
 
"the driver was approached by a man"

I'm always cautious about strangers who attempt to approach me in parking lots or open spaces. My instinct is to never let them get near me unchallenged. My usual response is to say in a loud voice, That's Close Enough!! What do you want? So far that simple challenge has proven sufficient. The day it doesn't will be interesting.

Did you watch the video? He was walking across a crowded parking lot. Are you going to challenge everyone walking to their car in a loud voice? I'd like to go to the mall with you! That would be fun!
 
I'm a fence rider. If the perp is dumb enough to openhandedly request that I relinquish my vehicle, he has a great surprise in store. On the other hand, if he was to have me at a disadvantage, he can have the wallet and car and all that goes with it.(if not defending my family, then its all in!)

Some times its best to have the wisdom to know when to hold em and know when to fold em. As always situational awareness is paramount.
 
Tough call when the crook has the drop on you.

If I can't draw, compliance may be the only option. UNLESS I'm being ordered to drive the car or get into the car.
Without seeing the video yet, I have to agree. BGWAG has the drop on you and is asking for a material possession? Give him what he asks for. He's asking you to go with him somewhere, or wants you to comply while being tied up or something? Resist, until you can't anymore.

That's my policy anyway.
 
Hand over the keys, you have a gun drawn on you. Stuff is replaceable, life is is a one time go. If you're in the car, then the situation changes. It doesn't change much when the assailant has a gun on you. Comply and make safe. Do not leave loved ones in the car, period. If you must fight to get them out, then all bets off.
 
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