Carjacking scenario...

[ShooterMcGavin]

Someone approaches you as you are getting to your car in a parking lot. They have a gun in hand and demand to take your car. You hand over the keys. Assume that you are in a state where it is NOT legal to use deadly force to stop the carjacker. Once the perp is inside the car, the gun is no longer threatening your life, so you cannot shoot the carjacker at that point. Also, you are within a city, with a law against discharging a gun. You are now standing right beside the car, before the crook has driven off. Knowing that a car with flat tires is easier for the police to stop, would you draw your gun and shoot out the tires??

The reasons I ask for your thoughts....
1. Drawing a gun will be brandishing (if the threat to your life no longer exists), and leaves you open to a conviction.
2. Discharging a gun within the city is also illegal, allowing more charges to be brought against you.

Isn't it great that the laws are so vague that you can be aiding the police in stopping a criminal behind the wheel of a 2 ton death machine, and yet you are open to being brought up on some significant charges?

 

[cj2340]

Sure I would...

... if I let things go that far. I would be so mad at the car-jacker that I would not want him to get away. But I sure hope that the car-jacker wouldn't be able to get into my car at all!

 

[thexrayboy]

You are essentially correct. Once the imminent threat to life is past, shooting at the BG is very hard to justify. Also shooting at a vehicle moving away from you can also garner a variety of charges. Isn't the law a wonderful thing! Designed to do many things one of the things that our legal system is very poor at providing is actual justice, the good old fashioned bad guy gets what he deserves and the good guy gets an atta boy kind of justice. Such a system sounds nice in theory but there is little profit to be had so we have the current gordian knot we call a legal system where if justice actually occurs it is usually a byproduct not an intended outcome.

 

[BullfrogKen]

ShooterMcGavin said: You are now standing right beside the car, before the crook has driven off.

And why would you still be standing there, in close proximity to a carjacker who just pulled a gun on you?

After you shoot out the car tires, what do you intend to do about the driver? His feet, and his gun, likely still work. I reckon you plan on hanging around the neighborhood to protect your disabled car after you somehow dealt with the immediate problem of the carjacker, right?

 

[theken206]

"Someone approaches you as you are getting to your car in a parking lot."

Well first thing I would say that not getting caught unaware{I LIVE in code yellow} would be first priority. Preventing and not putting yourself in the situation is paramount IMO.


"They have a gun in hand and demand to take your car."

Is the weapon being pointed at me and do I have a chance to draw said weapon of my own??

As I dont/cant carry a pistol this rules out my first thought of shoot the bastard{your life has been threatend with a firearm} if/when he lowers his weapon {or I see a chance} to catch the keys im going to throw at him.

Other than that its "here is the keys now please **** off" So I can call the cops and go change the locks and what not to my house{assuming its the same set of keys}

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

And why would you still be standing there, in close proximity to a carjacker who just pulled a gun on you?

Ok. I will take that to mean that, after surrenduring the car keys, you would be fleeing. Understandable.

Well first thing I would say that not getting caught unaware{I LIVE in code yellow} would be first priority. Preventing and not putting yourself in the situation is paramount IMO....Is the weapon being pointed at me and do I have a chance to draw said weapon of my own??

Understood. Let's assume that he really ambushed you.

No chance to fire on this guy until he is in the car. He does not take his attention from you or get close enough, before immediately jumping into your car. At THAT POINT, he is starting your car with the gun NOT pointed at you, and you can do something or nothing.

 

[theken206]

hmmmm thats kinda of a toughy, not really sure. I would have to say that If I knew for sure that I wasnt alowed to use DF{I dont think we can here in WA anyway can we??} in order to protect my property then I would say screw it{although It makes me curious about what the law says about less than lethal force in this case but that could lead to a sticky situation I think legally speaking} and let him go and call the cops. Maybe try and follow him as far as I could, cut through some back yards,an alley ect ect to better get a bead on what direction hes going.

lol, ORRRRRRR maybe try and get him to threaten you with the weapon agin??

 

[sm]

Survival is the objective.
This means going home with all your parts intact and nice if one does not have Problem Two to deal with.


In Original Post:
We are past Situational Awareness, we have been become a victim.
A victim with all our parts intact and no Problem Two.
Now one should : Be a great witness, get to safety, call Police and Observe and Report.

If the car is insured, great, let the Professionals such as Police and Insurance adjusters do their jobs.

If not, again let the Police handle it and keep fingers crossed they find the car and not too much damage when found.

It is history.
One learns from history, and mistakes, granted a heckuva lot less painful or expensive if someone else's mistake...
So now not only have you learned something, this incident can be used in a positive way to assist others.

Life is Life.

 

[sm]

Forgot-

You are wise to take immediate and prudent steps.

Key ring may have house keys, business keys.
Registration and Insurance has your home address.

Inform Police Immediately of this concern . Wife, Kids anyone at home can be surprised using house key . If one lives alone, you do not need to come home finally and be surprised yourself.

Ask Officers to please watch your home, make sure anyone at home is aware of dangers, have officers assist you in getting into house.

This is where having an extra set of locks at home comes in real handy.
Locks need to be changed immediately at home, and any other places where keys lead to, and anything in car leads car-jacker to ( reciepts, pay stubs, employee badge... in car...etc.)

Suspicious activity for some time needs to be considered home/ business.

Survival is using a set of tools, firearms are only one set of tools and they simply do not solve every problem.

Forget making everything center around a gun. While one is fussing and fuming and not thinking straight...

BGs unlock your door and over power wife, girlfriend...and have their way.

Get out of one's self, look at the big picture, think out of the box.

 

[theken206]

^^^^^ cant argue with that logic on survival. Its very akin to the thing I say about "street/barfights and what not" generall toughguyness type of situations on a few other boards when asked my opinion about what I would have/have done{IMHO if you havent found the answer to those certain types of questions about yourself by the time your 16/17 these days, with the laws being what they are. The fact that these days no one is willing to man up and go 1on1 and take a good ol fashioned ass whoopin like our fathers and there fathers before then when they think they have a "beef" or some such crap, then you prolly never should.}

My answer is always the same, while though yes I will stand up for myself when disrespected and have fought over some pretty petty stuff when I was younger the goal is not to be some kind of tough guy billy bad ass but to go home safe to you and yours, END OF STORY

 

[Slother]

You'd have to feel out the situation. If he's taken the keys, in the car, and driving away... Then it seems the mature thing to do is just let it go. You're only going to get yourself in trouble shooting at him.

Change the locks on your house, report it on insurance, and let it go. Why would he come after you if he's just steeling your car? Is is a homicidal car thief who wants to track down where you live and then kill you?

 

[Run&Shoot]

The time to act was when you were being ambushed. Once he is starting to drive away it is too late. Got to watch him drive off and learn to be more alert, better reactions next time.

 

[sm]

Why would he come after you if he's just steeling your car? Is is a homicidal car thief who wants to track down where you live and then kill you?

-Crime of Opportunity
-Bonus Crime
-Additional Crime is "sold".

Criminals are wired different from law abiding folks. They come in all levels of skill and background of experiences.
Joy rides, rite of passage to join a gang, car strippers (sell stripped cars for parts) car thieves (sell stolen cars) , armed robbery and need a get-a-way car...

Now Jail/ Prison "College" educates and some get back out.
There exists to a degree "honesty amongst thieves" - they network.

Carjack a car, and who knows what all has Already been Networked.

Gang banger gets his rite of passage, finds a credit card, that goes to the stolen credit card folks.
keys to a house, keys and information to those that break into houses. Which they already have an "order" for TV, Stereo, Audio Equipment - already a buyer - just need to steal it. While there they see evidence of guns, so they tell the criminals into guns where these are and share a duplicate set of keys.
Pretty teenage daughter and well some folks, guys or gals are into such things so they share another set of duplicate keys...

Now all crooks know insurance is going to replace All this stuff stolen, so it is not uncommon to come back again.
Locks changed? So what? They have folks in the Network that can B&E, pick locks, bypass that alarm, maybe a buddy working at Alarm company and ....



One of my employees got hit 4 times total, got him the first time, 3 more with replacement stuff each time and the last time took the washer and dryer!
This with his wife expecting their first child btw...

One customer of mine, sharp business lady, they made duplicates of her keys at the car wash, and got her address from her glove box off Insurance & Registration and was in her home, when she got home.

Tornado hit, and one bunch of thugs were looting...car keys, house keys, checkbooks and appointment books.

They had 'buyers' for these things. Fake check ring, stealing cars, getting into houses later, and with appointment books, knew schedules.

Guns are great, still not the answer to every situation.
Lots of stuff goes on in the real world.

Think like a thief.

FWIW -
My mom has her Insurance and Registration for her car in the trunk of her car.
Sure it is supposed to be in glove box, still when she was pulled over she told the young officer she would have to get out in the rain and get it out of the trunk.
She told him why it was in the trunk.
Officer said his wife's papers would be in her trunk as soon as he got home.
Informed mom speed limit was lowered where she was driving due to construction, no warning, no ticket and wished her a nice day thanked her for the tip and assisted her getting back out to main road safe.

Mom also has new spare locks at the house too.
Which came in handy when a lock just broke due to age...
Spare used, new set of spares ready to go.

 

[kellyj00]

save yourself the trouble and be a victim in this case. no paperwork except a police report and nobody can sue you. It's just a car and it's covered by insurance anyhow...then you can even sue the perp if you feel like it.

Best option... lock your doors, leave lots of room between you and the car in front of you so you can peel off if need be. Never ever stop for a train with less than two car lengths in front of you.

 

[security6]

Why open yourself up to more risk by drawing and shooting your gun? You know the criminal in the car has a gun. How is the criminal going to know that you are only shooting at the tires? My concern is that the criminal thinks that you are shooting at him, and returns fire.

Good advice from everyone else on changing locks, watching for paperwork, etc.

 

[stevemis]

Someone approaches you as you are getting to your car in a parking lot.

Would it be a safe assumption that I've just finished placing a toddler into their child safety seat and am approached as I enter the driver's seat?

Food for thought. How would these replies change, if at all?

Steve

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Great responses so far! Thanks!

Would it be a safe assumption that I've just finished placing a toddler into their child safety seat and am approached as I enter the driver's seat?

Food for thought. How would these replies change, if at all?

Steve

Ouch! Good question. In that scenerio, your child's life is at stake. I can be quite sure that my magazine would be empty when the police arrive to pick up the carjacker's body.

Taking events from the start of my example: I guess I would try to appeal to the carjacker (CJ) that a child is in the car. I would give up the keys by tossing and making sure they land on the ground. This assures me that the CJ will have to lower his gun and his focus on me in order to pick up the keys and then to drive the car. I would try to position myself to the rear of the driver's door. As soon as the CJ turned his focus away from me, I would "lighten my magazine".

 

[TallPine]

Assume that you are in a state where it is NOT legal to use deadly force to stop the carjacker.

Well, I don't live in that state.

Car-jacking is a forcible felony

 

[ZeSpectre]

Carjacking scenario...
Someone approaches you as you are getting to your car in a parking lot. They have a gun in hand and demand to take your car. You hand over the keys. Assume that you are in a state where it is NOT legal to use deadly force to stop the carjacker.

I could do a long rant on situational awareness but that was pretty well covered in this post a while ago.

A person stands there and points a gun at you and informs you he's taking your car. The short version of what he's saying is "your car or your life". We are instantly WAAAAY past defense of property and well into "fear for your life" territory. It's not like you see him stealing your car from across the parking lot.

Once the perp is inside the car, the gun is no longer threatening your life, so you cannot shoot the carjacker at that point.

I disagree as it is but an instant's change of mind for the badguy to decide he won't leave any witnesses. On the other hand now that he's busy starting the car it might be a good time to bolt for cover. To shoot or run is dependant on so many variables it's almost impossible to answer.

Maybe the best choice is to flee, or maybe it's like the case a few years ago where the badguy told the victim "I'll see ya later pal" and the victim (taking it as a future threat) drew and shot the badguy on the spot.

You are now standing right beside the car, before the crook has driven off. Knowing that a car with flat tires is easier for the police to stop, would you draw your gun and shoot out the tires??

I suspect I'd be likely to bolt for cover if possible. However, if I did make (for whatever reason) the decision to shoot in defense of my life, I'm going to be aiming for the perp.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Assume that you are in a state where it is NOT legal to use deadly force to stop the carjacker.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I meant to say: Assume that stopping the theft of property does not permit the use of deadly force.

 

[Geronimo45]

If you're in a state where deadly force is not permitted in defense of a vehicle, you just don't get out of the car. After all, the carjacker's not going to violate the law - just like they don't violate gun laws! VPC told me so.

 

[cpaspr]

It isn't a case of defense of property. When the carjacker pointed the gun at you, it became fear for your life time. Just because he momentarily changes his point of aim as he gets in the car, does not remove the threat to your life. It means he's given you an opportunity to draw and defend your life. Not draw and defend your property. How do you know that eliminating witnesses is not already part of his plan? You don't, and should not bet your life and the lives of any loved ones who may be at home (address provided by registration, keys probably on the same key ring) on his compassion and mercy.

He used a gun and you are still at risk. Defense of life, not defense of property. End of discussion.

 

[eric.cartman]

Is it just me...

or do a lot of you walk around with your hand ON your BUG ???

I mean, I have NEVER walked accross a parking lot without my P3AT in my hand and in my pocket. Want my keys, sure. I'll drop them, and when you're picking them up, I'll drop you.

Both hands in pockets. One on gun. One on keys. Remote entry. Get in the car. FIRST THING I DO IS LOCK THE DOORS.

 

[answerguy]

When he was starting to drive away I'm pretty sure I heard him say "I'm going to come back and rape and kill your wife and daughter". That's when my gun went off accidentally.

 

[BADUNAME13]

1. The perp has a gun... therefore my life IS in danger.
-He may decide not to leave a witness.

2. I would not shoot for tires.