Carjacking
- Thread starter Kleanbore
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aaaaa
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Now you have a good point. If the knife wielder is just threatening you with a knife and you are locked in the car with the window up, you should not point a gun at him. But, if he starts smashing at your window, it is quickly becoming a situation where you could be injured unable to back away from a knife thrust through a broken out window, so at that point it seems that pointing the gun at him is legitimate, but not to scare the pants off of him (though it probably will), but hopefully to get him to stop his attack and if he doesn't, ultimately to protect yourself form serious injury or death.
I think that a lot of people really overestimate the effectiveness of pointing a gun at someone. People attack visibly armed police officers every day. Criminals and emotionally disturbed persons do not think the same way others in society do. Some people will view that as a challenge, not a threat. Many people who are drunk or on some other intoxicant won’t recognize it as a threat.
There is a distinct possibility that an attempt to “scare the pants” off the criminal may escalate the situation. Until you’ve been part of a fight that started with an EDP telling 5 police officers; “There aren’t enough of you to take me to jail.” it’s hard to comprehend.
That’s another reason you shouldn’t display your weapon until it’s use is necessary.
eb in oregon
Member
There are many opinions on this planet, a bunch based upon personal experience and the location one lives in. There are 50 states and none of them have the exact same rule of law. You don't like what you've read, that's your right. I've never met such a bunch of arm chair lawyers fluent in the laws of all the states and you guys aren't as smart as you believe.
theotherwaldo
Member
The only time that anyone attempted to carjack me, the carjacker did not present a weapon.
He simply caught me when I was blocked in in traffic and started jerking on my door handle, with three of his buddies standing around waiting to jump in after him.
They all started looking nervous when I put on the hearing protection that I keep on the passenger-side head rest and then they ran off when the pistol came out,
I didn't hear about another carjacking attempt in that area for a long time... .
He simply caught me when I was blocked in in traffic and started jerking on my door handle, with three of his buddies standing around waiting to jump in after him.
They all started looking nervous when I put on the hearing protection that I keep on the passenger-side head rest and then they ran off when the pistol came out,
I didn't hear about another carjacking attempt in that area for a long time... .
Variation among jurisdictions:
In all states and US territories, the use of deadly force is lawful only when there is reason to believe that i its immediately necessary to defend against an imminent deadly force attack, the use of deadly force is reasonable, and, of course, the actor is innocent. In some states, retreat is required if retreat is safely possible; in others, retreat is not required, but the jurors may take into account the failure to retreat in considering whether the actor's use of force was reasonable.
In some states, a person who is threatened while in his conveyance is afforded a legal presumption that a deadly force attack is imminent. "Threatened" does not extend to words and gestures. Details very among jurisdictions; in some, the attacher must have gained access to the inside of the vehicle; in others, attempting to break into the car will suffice.
Regarding the display of a weapon, in most states the requirements for justification are the same as for actually using deadly force. In others, a lesser threshold exists; details vary, but generally, the defensive display of a firearm will only be justified when physical force would be justified.
When that is done, the actor should be the first to call it in, if at all possible.
In all states and US territories, the use of deadly force is lawful only when there is reason to believe that i its immediately necessary to defend against an imminent deadly force attack, the use of deadly force is reasonable, and, of course, the actor is innocent. In some states, retreat is required if retreat is safely possible; in others, retreat is not required, but the jurors may take into account the failure to retreat in considering whether the actor's use of force was reasonable.
In some states, a person who is threatened while in his conveyance is afforded a legal presumption that a deadly force attack is imminent. "Threatened" does not extend to words and gestures. Details very among jurisdictions; in some, the attacher must have gained access to the inside of the vehicle; in others, attempting to break into the car will suffice.
Regarding the display of a weapon, in most states the requirements for justification are the same as for actually using deadly force. In others, a lesser threshold exists; details vary, but generally, the defensive display of a firearm will only be justified when physical force would be justified.
When that is done, the actor should be the first to call it in, if at all possible.
1st off, thank you for your service eb.
Now keeping with the context of this section of the forum and related to the many dynamics involved in carjacking situations, I will offer the following.
Using your defensive carry firearm to scare someone is not in my mind a good strategy. Nor does it seem to be a wise tactic. While I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, common sense tells us there could be legal ramifications that could greatly effect your ability to legally carry in the future.
And while I've never had any specialized training, I'm pretty sure there doesn't exist anywhere proffesional training that promotes using your firearm to scare people.
We have great responsibilty when we decide to carry, and should act accordingly.
...or to remain unconfined.
At Common Law, causing apprehension of harm is the classic definition of assault. Add the firearm, and the crime is much more serious.
1942bull
Member
I live 15 miles south of Philly. Our Congresswoman was car-jacked w few weeks back in Philly. They caught the preps and she got her car back. My neighbor is a retired Philly LEO. He told me that he has been told by his contacts that it is due to the following. The thieves want upscale cars and trucks. Problem is that upscale means more theft resistant. Between computer controlled cars are hard to steal so the thieves have turned to car-jacking. It also means they do not damage the car making it more valuable to the ring.
You might want to check your state laws before you plan a course of action in a car-jack attempt. Here in PA there is a Castle Doctrine that allows for doing harm to any intruder into your home or vehicle without being prosecuted or incurring civil liability. If I am in my car and someone gets the door open without my permission it will be the worst and possibly last day of their life. If I am outside the car the doctrine does not apply and it is unlawful here to do bodily harm to stop a theft. So I will just shoot any tire I can get a shot at. They’re not going far in a flat or two.
You might want to check your state laws before you plan a course of action in a car-jack attempt. Here in PA there is a Castle Doctrine that allows for doing harm to any intruder into your home or vehicle without being prosecuted or incurring civil liability. If I am in my car and someone gets the door open without my permission it will be the worst and possibly last day of their life. If I am outside the car the doctrine does not apply and it is unlawful here to do bodily harm to stop a theft. So I will just shoot any tire I can get a shot at. They’re not going far in a flat or two.
The Night Rider
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What if you miss the tire and get a ricochet off the pavement? Are you accountable when that bullet hits a bystander?
eb in oregon
Member
I'm one month shy of 70. I served during three wars (only got to one) for 24 years and change. I've two college degrees in law enforcement and worked in corrections. I'm as grown as I'm gonna get, but you probably should receive a dose of reality.
And, just saying, but the concept has been casually addressed "I'd just drive away" while apparently forgetting that being boxed up in traffic with pedestrians in front of you (as well as cross traffic in front) and a car behind kind of precludes simply "driving away" while a guy with a large knife is tapping on your window. I find it amazing how people that believe being armed is a good thing but refuse to consider that situations change in micro seconds and assuming your opinions are of more worth than others (while the individual has never been in such a situation themselves) and that driving a thug away from you, your vehicle, and your wife without any shots being fired isn't illegal nor an adverse accomplishment.
I carry a pistol with a license in order to protect myself, my wife, and those around me in time of need, I don't carry it as an ornament "because I can" and I'm quite familiar with the laws of the state I carry in. And I don't tell others what they can or can't do, that's an adult decision made on the spot.
“The Crazy Years: Considerable technical advance during this period, accompanied by a gradual deterioration of mores, orientation, and social institutions, terminating in mass psychoses in the sixth decade, and the interregnum.”
Robert Heinlein
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Very true.
Yep. Being alert and aware, having a plan, and being ready to act instantly are very important.
Not long ago, I had a worrisome experience while I was in my car and my wife was using an ATM. Nothing occurred to justify my display of a firearm, but things were tense. I removed if from the holster and kept it ready, but out of sight, in case things changed in those microseconds.
That depends on how you do it, on what he was doing, and on what fragmented evidence is available after the fact.
True fact.
The Night Rider
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Happy soon coming birthday.
There's an old saying
"If one person tells you you're a horse you can ignore it. If two people tell you you're a horse you might want to think about what they said and three people tell you you're a horse you need to go buy a saddle."
Multiple people have told you that displaying a gun in the circumstances you mentioned is a really bad idea. You might want to think on that
1942bull
Member
I won’t miss. I’ll be right along the side of the car and when the perp is getting in. The air will be going out. I am old, not stupid.
bdickens
Member
Proof that numbers on a calendar don't mean a thing when it comes to wisdom or maturity. And neither does your resume.
Here's a dose of reality for you: there is no state in the nation that allows you to wave guns around it people just to scare them; no state where you're allowed to wave guns around at people when you're not in immediate jeopardy of life or limb. None.
So you had no formal training in criminal law outside of what applies to corrections which is much different in every state than how it applies to dealing with the public. You never worked the street as a peace officer and have no real experience with the court system. 24 years in the military, two degrees in LE and working in corrections sounds impressive to a layman but the reality is, there are probably at least 100 different MOSs and almost none of them teach skills and judgement that would be relevant to this discussion. Perhaps being a CID Special Agent. I used to be on the advisory board for the Criminal Justice program at the local community college, I know what's in those curriculums.
Working in corrections is challenging and difficult, but it's not the same as working with the public as a peace officer. I know you're rightfully proud of what you did with your life but it really doesn't give you any special insight into this situation. The fact is that pointing a gun at someone who is not a threat to you when you do it is illegal everywhere in the United States.
old lady new shooter
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Monkey dance.
Here's a relevant thread about an actual incident in which a vehicle was blocked and the occupants were threatened by more than one person. The perps not only waved hardware and made gestures, they pounded on the car and tried to get in.
Would the use of deadly force or the display of a weapon have been lawfully justified? That changed from no to yes to no to yes to no again very quickly as things unfolded.
That's worth considering and understanding very carefully.
[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/defending-the-occupants-of-your-vehicle.864680/"]Defending (the Occupants of) your Vehicle[/URL]
Would the use of deadly force or the display of a weapon have been lawfully justified? That changed from no to yes to no to yes to no again very quickly as things unfolded.
That's worth considering and understanding very carefully.
[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/defending-the-occupants-of-your-vehicle.864680/"]Defending (the Occupants of) your Vehicle[/URL]
eb in oregon
Member
"Here's a dose of reality for you: there is no state in the nation that allows you to wave guns around it people just to scare them; no state where you're allowed to wave guns around at people when you're not in immediate jeopardy of life or limb. None."
That's an opinion not a fact. And regardless whether you agree or not to display a firearm when being threatened with violence is legal. That you choose to believe different is your choice with your life.
"So you had no formal training in criminal law outside of what applies to corrections which is much different in every state than how it applies to dealing with the public."
And I never stated that fact, you merely assumed it. I'm done here, the assumptions and beliefs some people have simply aren't worth the effort to address.
That's an opinion not a fact. And regardless whether you agree or not to display a firearm when being threatened with violence is legal. That you choose to believe different is your choice with your life.
"So you had no formal training in criminal law outside of what applies to corrections which is much different in every state than how it applies to dealing with the public."
And I never stated that fact, you merely assumed it. I'm done here, the assumptions and beliefs some people have simply aren't worth the effort to address.
It is a fact.
Under certain circumstances, yes, and under others, no. Read Post #131.
bdickens
Member
I'll come visit you when you're in prison.
Old Hobo
Member
I've never been carjacked. I'm not a member of law enforcement.
So, I found some videos concerning carjacking defense. These seemed rational to me.
In the following video, a specific carjacking case is reported first. After that, an individual gives a series of tips on avoiding a carjacking.
If you are strong and a robber sticks his gun in through the driver window, here's a technique of defense:
Now here's a situation when the carjacker is in the back seat:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qgcZIbHbyq0
This guy disagrees -- very much so -- with the above technique:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sGM3owmx1Ig
Brazil; citizen armed, proficient, and AWARE; multiple attackers; after the act of self defense, if you're not a cop, don't follow-up, that's the job of the police, and hey, you don't know if there are more bad guys. The quality of the video is so-so, yet one gets the view of what went down.
Video of carjacking attempt. Driver was armed. Interview with this carjacking survivor:
So, I found some videos concerning carjacking defense. These seemed rational to me.
In the following video, a specific carjacking case is reported first. After that, an individual gives a series of tips on avoiding a carjacking.
If you are strong and a robber sticks his gun in through the driver window, here's a technique of defense:
Now here's a situation when the carjacker is in the back seat:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qgcZIbHbyq0
This guy disagrees -- very much so -- with the above technique:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sGM3owmx1Ig
Brazil; citizen armed, proficient, and AWARE; multiple attackers; after the act of self defense, if you're not a cop, don't follow-up, that's the job of the police, and hey, you don't know if there are more bad guys. The quality of the video is so-so, yet one gets the view of what went down.
Video of carjacking attempt. Driver was armed. Interview with this carjacking survivor:
tactikel
Member
Carjacking is so prevalent recently is because stealing newer cars is more difficult. In years past stealing a car was easy, for a chop shop, or for a joy ride. With the advent of surveillance cameras, license plate readers, stolen cars are more used to commit felonies. To extend the jackers time to commit their crime they strip the car owner of wallet, phone, and key fob, then stuff you into the trunk so you can’t call in the theft. After they commit their crime (armed robbery, murder, rape) what are their plans for the only witness? I always have a BUG (LCP) In case my Shield is wrested from me. I will never get into a trunk unarmed.
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