Carry Insurance

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D.B. Cooper

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I don't EDC a firearm, but with what has been going on in the news lately (McCloskeys, Rittenhouse) I'm really thinking about some sort of carry insurance.

I don't know a lot about it other than you pay money, you call them when you're in trouble, and they send you a lawyer.

Those of you who are EDC everyday and who do have carry insurance, what company did you go with and why? What are some things I should be looking for in a policy? How do I determine what level of coverage I to buy? What types of policies are good values (Notice I didn't say cheapest)?
 
I have CCW Safe; also highly recommend USCCA. I've talked with one of their reps in person and I'm impressed. So impressed I might just subscribe to both. WRT value I can't say because I've never used the service and hope to heaven I never have to. I suppose you could build a spreadsheet with fee versus amounts of coverages as a decision matrix. Types of coverages offered hard to compare, though, because they're not exactly the same. Is why I'm thinking of both.

(edited to correct name of my legal defense coverage)
 
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This subject has been discussed in other threads in THR, by Andrew Branca on his videos and blogs, and also in an article at Armed Citizen Legal Defense. Network.
Aspects to consider, as pointed out in several discussions:
1. Does the program reimburse after the trial, or does it pay expenses up front?
2. Does the program automatically cover you under any circumstances, or does it first evaluate the reported incident to determine if it is apparently legitimate self defense?
- ACLDN first has a board review of the report before deciding to participate.
- USCCA currently has a lawsuit pending for refusing to support a member due to the circumstances of the incident
3. Is there a cap or limit to the amount the program will cover?
4. Is the program considered an insurance plan in your state, and thus under the jurisdiction of the State Insurance Commissioner?
- ACLDN is not an insurance plan, but the WA State Insurance Commissioner says but is, and they currently cannot accept new members in WA (the state in which ACLDN is based).
- NRA Carry Guard got shut down in NY because of the NY Insurance Commissioner action (NRA Carry Guard is no longer operating, but the company that underwrote the program is selling carry protection insurance).

Notes:
1. Andrew Branca, Law of Self Defense, has CCW Safe, recommends it, and they sponsor his blog and videos.
2. John Correia, Active Self Protection, used to recommend CCW Safe, but recently changed to another insurance program as a sponsor, Firearms Legal Protection.
3. I have been a member of ACLDN for over ten years.
 
I have CCW Safe; also highly recommend USCCA. I've talked with one of their reps in person and I'm impressed. So impressed I might just subscribe to both. WRT value I can't say because I've never used the service and hope to heaven I never have to. I suppose you could build a spreadsheet with fee versus amounts of coverages as a decision matrix. Types of coverages offered hard to compare, though, because they're not exactly the same. Is why I'm thinking of both.

(edited to correct name of my legal defense coverage)

TLDR (most important part is in bold):

1. You do absolutely HAVE to have access to the money to hire lawyers, if you are going to carry a gun. (My opinion)

If you can’t hire a lawyer, prosecutors will see you as an easy target. This makes them more likely to charge you, more likely to file harsh charges, and less likely to try and work something out.

Whether it’s a concealed carry plan, a tupperware full of cash buried next to the BBQ pit, or a middle-class extended family that can fundraise, you need that money ready to go, fast.

2. You will be spending thousands of dollars over a lifetime of paying for a plan, so it is very worth it to pay a criminal defense lawyer 500-1000 to review your stack of plans and tell you which one, if any, will do you some good.

Long version:

To summarize my experience, as someone getting paid by insurance companies to investigate criminal and civil defense cases:

Homeowner policies are excellent, as far as they go. My experience has been that the insurance companies essentially write blank checks for the defense. It is in the insurance company’s financial interest to get you the best defense possible.

The concealed carry plans (they’re not real insurance) that I have looked at have had major problems that meant the plans were of limited value. Possibly of no value.

Still, there may be an excellent plan out there; I don’t know. Note that it is not in a plan’s financial interest to get you the best defense possible; it is in their interest to spend as little money on you as possible.

Some deal-breakers I have seen:

The plan picks your lawyer.

The plan reimburses you down the road.

The plan reviews your case and reserves the right to refuse to pay if, in their sole opinion, you have some measure of guilt.

The plan pays you less than, say, $200K + 50K expenses to defend your criminal case (trying a murder case generally costs from 100k to 1M in a big city; maybe half that in a small town).

There are many other problems you will find in the plans, but these are the ones that had me thinking, “Why would anyone pay for this plan?”
 
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I had essentially the same concerns as the OP, and really just want to be able to instantly lawyer-up if it ever comes to it. I went with USCCA primarily on the strength of others' recommendations. So far I have not had to use them, and God willing I never will have to, so I can't really comment on much. They send out a glossy, fairly useless magazine on general carry topics. They spam the daylights out of my email. That's pretty much my experience to this point.
 
Homeowner policies are excellent, as far as they go. My experience has been that the insurance companies essentially write blank checks for the defense. It is in the insurance company’s financial interest to get you the best defense possible.

Hw in the world would you use your homeowner's insurance policy to cover your legal fees?
 
TLDR (most important part is in bold):

1. You do absolutely HAVE to have access to the money to hire lawyers, if you are going to carry a gun. (My opinion)

If you can’t hire a lawyer, prosecutors will see you as an easy target. This makes them more likely to charge you, more likely to file harsh charges, and less likely to try and work something out.

Whether it’s a concealed carry plan, a tupperware full of cash buried next to the BBQ pit, or a middle-class extended family that can fundraise, you need that money ready to go, fast.

2. You will be spending thousands of dollars over a lifetime of paying for a plan, so it is very worth it to pay a criminal defense lawyer 500-1000 to review your stack of plans and tell you which one, if any, will do you some good.

Long version:

To summarize my experience, as someone getting paid by insurance companies to investigate criminal and civil defense cases:

Homeowner policies are excellent, as far as they go. My experience has been that the insurance company essentially wrote a blank check for the defense. It is in the insurance company’s financial interest to get you the best defense possible.

The concealed carry plans (they’re mostly not actual insurance) that I have looked at have have major problems that meant the plans were of limited value. Still, there may be an excellent plan out there; I don’t know.

Some deal-breakers I have seen:

The plan picks your lawyer.

The plan reimburses you down the road.

The plan reviews your case and reserves the right to refuse to pay if, in their sole opinion, you have some measure of guilt.

The plan pays you less than, say, $200K + 50K expenses to defend your case.

There are many other problems you will find in the plans, but these are the ones that had me thinking, “Why would anyone pay for this plan?”
Hw in the world would you use your homeowner's insurance policy to cover your legal fees?
It's the client using the client's policy to pay legal/investigative fees. It only works when there is some tie-in from the incident to the client's house. Working for a detective agency at the time, and not dealing with receivables, I didn't know the details of why the policy covered. I think it had to do with different insurance companies for the involved parties suing each other, and somehow the Homeowners company needing acquittal to reduce their exposure -- not really sure.

But it happened in 3 cases, and each time I was able to investigate anything and everything without regard to how big my bill was getting.

I'm not sure whether there is CCW insurance out there, but if there is, it's likely better than any "plan," which are really pre-paid legal type arrangements (i.e. poorly regulated by the gov.).

However, there may be excellent plans. The trick is finding them. Very worth it to buy an hour or two of criminal-defense lawyer time to have him look over the plans and their provisions.

Also, like people here say, Branca has accurate info in his books and videos.
 
I don't EDC a firearm, but with what has been going on in the news lately (McCloskeys, Rittenhouse) I'm really thinking about some sort of carry insurance.

I don't know a lot about it other than you pay money, you call them when you're in trouble, and they send you a lawyer.

Those of you who are EDC everyday and who do have carry insurance, what company did you go with and why? What are some things I should be looking for in a policy? How do I determine what level of coverage I to buy? What types of policies are good values (Notice I didn't say cheapest)?


Hello, I am new to The High Road, however not new to EDC and "carry Insurance". I carry as often as possible and I have a "Legal Service Membership". There is some very good information in the above posts. If someone carry's a handgun as part of their life, having financial backing is worth every penny as an investment in themselves if they ever had to defend themselves. I learned about "Self Defense Insurance" on the Law of Self Defense from criminal Defense attorney Andrew Branca. He explains it quite well. There are several companies out there that offer Legal Service Memberships. You might want to look for a Legal Service Membership that covers the most for both criminal and civil coverage. The higher the level of membership, the more coverage you have for criminal and civil coverage. Legal Service membership companies that I know include: CCWSafe, USCCA, Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, US Law Shield, Firearms Legal Protection. Perhaps go to You Tube and watch comparisons on each one. Hope this helps!
 
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USCCA here. Not saying it’s the best, worst, competitive....whatever..... it’s just what I chose and hope I’ll never need.

I and some other family members had a private meeting with a very knowledgeable law enforcement officer. He recommended USCCA so that's what I have.

I also hope to never use it.
 
USCCA is not insurance. The fine print from their website:

* Insurance has been purchased by the USCCA and is one of the benefits of membership in the USCCA. Coverage and benefits are subject to the terms, conditions, and exclusions of the insurance policy issued to the USCCA by Universal Fire and Casualty Insurance Company, an insurance company with its principal place of business in Hudsonville, MI. Coverage and benefits are subject to the benefits-text-sm, conditions, and exclusions of the insurance policy. Information provided herein is for informational purposes and is not intended to be a representation of coverage that may exist in any particular situation. Contact Delta Defense’s Customer Engagement Team at 1-800-674-9779 with any questions.
 
USCCA is not insurance. The fine print from their website:

* Insurance has been purchased by the USCCA and is one of the benefits of membership in the USCCA. Coverage and benefits are subject to the terms, conditions, and exclusions of the insurance policy issued to the USCCA by Universal Fire and Casualty Insurance Company, an insurance company with its principal place of business in Hudsonville, MI. Coverage and benefits are subject to the benefits-text-sm, conditions, and exclusions of the insurance policy. Information provided herein is for informational purposes and is not intended to be a representation of coverage that may exist in any particular situation. Contact Delta Defense’s Customer Engagement Team at 1-800-674-9779 with any questions.

My Uncle John flew F111s and commanded a base or two in the 70s and 80s. I always smile when I see your avatar.
 
I'm not sure who to ask this question, I'm new to THR. I am a firearms Instructor in MN. Where/who do ask if I can advertise classes I teach? Or is it only possible to do so if I subscribe to the Advertising tab on THR??
 
I personally opted for CCW Safe based on price and what they offer.

Even if you have carry insurance/prepaid legal services, though, its a good idea to have a local lawyer on retainer as well. A lawyer from your area (where statistically an incident is likely to happen to you) knows the judges, their tendencies, and so on. I happen to have a coworker whose mother and uncle are both well connected local attorneys. Needless to say, I maintain a good relationship with her. In the event I'm involved in an incident with a firearm, after my wife and CCWSafe, my next call will be to that coworker to help arrange the local aspect of my representation. I don't have them on retainer but know that if needed they are available and immediate payment won't be an issue.

In my case, I am also fortunate that I am an officer of the court and have at least a passing familiarity with quite a few defense attorneys/public defenders, states attorneys, and judges.
 
I personally opted for CCW Safe based on price and what they offer.

Even if you have carry insurance/prepaid legal services, though, its a good idea to have a local lawyer on retainer as well. A lawyer from your area (where statistically an incident is likely to happen to you) knows the judges, their tendencies, and so on. I happen to have a coworker whose mother and uncle are both well connected local attorneys. Needless to say, I maintain a good relationship with her. In the event I'm involved in an incident with a firearm, after my wife and CCWSafe, my next call will be to that coworker to help arrange the local aspect of my representation. I don't have them on retainer but know that if needed they are available and immediate payment won't be an issue.

In my case, I am also fortunate that I am an officer of the court and have at least a passing familiarity with quite a few defense attorneys/public defenders, states attorneys, and judges.

I think that is good advice, however, retainer fees are usually in the thousands of dollars. I can't afford that. (I probably can't afford not to either.) I can, should, and will pay the attorney fees to just have a consultation, but I can't lay out for a retainer. Wish I could.
 
I think that is good advice, however, retainer fees are usually in the thousands of dollars. I can't afford that. (I probably can't afford not to either.) I can, should, and will pay the attorney fees to just have a consultation, but I can't lay out for a retainer. Wish I could.

I absolutely get that. Like I mentioned, I don't actually have anyone on retainer BUT I have connections such that I really don't need to in order to be able to have someone show up for me.

The unfortunate thing is there is just as much politics as there is law, and that attorney who golfs/eats lunch/attends events with the same judges know those politics better than the attorneys that USCCA/CCWSafe/etc. will send. Ideally, a legal team composed of both local attorneys who can play the politics and expert attorneys who are more acquainted with the minutia of self defense law is what you want. Just have to hope the two sides are willing to work together. The nice thing is, the pre-paid legal service guys are prepaid, which leaves the money left for the local representation.
 
I absolutely get that. Like I mentioned, I don't actually have anyone on retainer BUT I have connections such that I really don't need to in order to be able to have someone show up for me.

The unfortunate thing is there is just as much politics as there is law, and that attorney who golfs/eats lunch/attends events with the same judges know those politics better than the attorneys that USCCA/CCWSafe/etc. will send. Ideally, a legal team composed of both local attorneys who can play the politics and expert attorneys who are more acquainted with the minutia of self defense law is what you want. Just have to hope the two sides are willing to work together. The nice thing is, the pre-paid legal service guys are prepaid, which leaves the money left for the local representation.

All good points. I appreciate your input. You know, Massad Ayoob (and John Corriea as well) say a legal defense on a murder/manslaughter charge is upwards of 400k to half a mil, which is why the carry insurance is an absolute must. But...in the same vein very very very few of us can afford those legal fees, even with the insurance, I couldn't pay for a local attorney. (And of course, those who can afford those legal fees, can also hire their own armed, vip security detail.)
 
Insurance is one of those goofy things. You never know what it is worth until you need it, and more often than not, you find out it isn’t worth much. Ask all those poor souls affected by hurricane Katrina.

But hey if it makes you feel better, I’ll be your insurance. Please send $1000 ASAP.

OR

Don’t shoot in the first place.
 
You bet a guy that you are going to be involved in a shooting, he bets your are not and you hope he wins.

The Terror from within
The Kenosho shooting, was a big wake up call. A man clearly defended his life against terrorist and now jailed and fighting for his freedom. I bought my insurance through USCCA and feel total peace of mind as far as it is at least possible. They are a dedicated organization.I spent quite a bit of time going through picking my choice. I also talked with a Representative. Very professional. Rates are low. If nothing else get the minimum as you can increase later.
Not a good plan to get caught with you pants down in this new world of Terror which we now live in. You carry a EDC to protect yourself and your family. Carry Insurance for the same reason.
Heck, I even like their Magazine.(Just received their "Home Defense Edition")
 
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