Carry Options... Is your gun "shootable" under stress?

[trackskippy]

Just got this Mas Ayoob article in American Handgunner from 2020 in an email. It seems the internet must be watching.

Off Duty Capability - American Handgunner

Is your gun sufficiently accurate and “shootable” — in your hands — particularly under stress? Enough rounds on board and potent enough to get the job done?

americanhandgunner.com

While his article is geared at cops here, all of it does still apply to all of us who choose to carry a gun, when you get right down to it.

 

[GEM]

One thing Mas (and others stress) is that you need realistic training with the gun. We know that most carriers do not do this. Then practice - perhaps not of just shooting groups at the square rang.

We ask about EDC and get lists of guns. A proportion are more COSplay and not optimal. Folks who say they carry (if they are to be believed), two SAA Colts, Makarovs - for example. Yes, they are guns and go bang - but not optimal.

A quality semi and extra mag - covered up. Or for NPE/dress constraints - a pocket J frame or reasonable pocket semi. Then train for it. A big old belt revolver - limited capacity - one opponent gun - yes, retro fun but not optimal.

There is a significant J frame coterie in the training world. Their take is that they can be shot decently IF you train up. Also, they acknowledge they are going for the odds of a single opponent, few shots needed risk most of the time.

That's my take.

 

[chicharrones]

Due to work and clothing requirements, I carry a true pocket gun nearly all the time. Due to the small size of the gun, and non-adjustable or imprecise sights, my pocket shooters are not capable of the comment from the article below.

"As convenient as it might be to carry an itty-bitty mouse gun, take it to the range and determine whether or not you could confidently make a brain shot with it from, say, 25 yards."

Truly, my pocket guns are for 10 yards and closer. 15 yards would be pushing it. I absolutely do not count on my pocket guns for brain shots at 25 yards.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Due to work and clothing requirements, I carry a true pocket gun nearly all the time. Due to the small size of the gun, and non-adjustable or imprecise sights, my pocket shooters are not capable of the comment from the article below.

"As convenient as it might be to carry an itty-bitty mouse gun, take it to the range and determine whether or not you could confidently make a brain shot with it from, say, 25 yards."

Truly, my pocket guns are for 10 yards and closer. 15 yards would be pushing it. I absolutely do not count on my pocket guns for brain shots at 25 yards.

Truly, complying with concealment laws and work constraints will often dictate what and how you carry- rarely is this optimal.
You gotta do the best with watcha got.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

The 'Brain shot at 25 yards' was my standard for my duty weapon back when dinosaurs walked the Earth. It was not my standard for back-up or off duty because it was unrealistic given that one of the constraints on those guns was that they be easily concealed and genuinely concealable options were less capable than they are today; they seldom had really good sights. Modern guns have gotten better; in my prime I could probably have made the shot with a gun like the P-365. I probably couldn't today because of age, vision and other limitations.

Thing is it is just as important to be aware of your limitations as it is to push your skills to the utmost. If a head shot at 25 yards isn't doable then I know to not do it and need to work around that lack of ability if possible. If it takes me 2 seconds to draw and fire an aimed shot I know I need to wait for or create a two-second window. I need to train not just to expand my abilities, but to understand my limitations so that I can work around them.

There are a few situations (damn few) where the only gun I can carry is a tiny 'mouse-gun.' This is not carried as an alternative to a more capable weapon, it's as an alternative to being unarmed. Even though these instances are rare I train with the gun to explore my abilities and the limitations with it. I need to know what can and can't be done so I know what I am working with if I ever need it. Head shots at 25 yards ain't gonna happen, but I can quickly and consistently place head shots at 7 yards, which is important to know.

 

[trackskippy]

I think the gist of what he was getting at was, you don't have to, nor do you want to, go down in size and can carry a more substantial and realistic gun, especially today. That, and they give you a better chance in a broader variety of situations.

The only way to know your limitations is to push/stress them to know, and how many in reality, do? Most people I know and see shooting, base things on static, slow-fire bullseye-type shooting, usually at close range.


I did get a flashback right off in that article too, with the pic of the Bianchi "Pistol Pocket" holster and the M15 in it. At the time I started carrying a gun, they were the same holster I used for the guns I was carrying at the time, a Colt 1911, a S&W Model 10 and 19, and a Walther PPK.

It didn't take me long to figure out that IWB was the only way to go if you wanted concealment. I also figured out pretty quick to cut the thumb break straps off too. And in all these years now, nothing has changed there.

With all the selection of holsters we have today, and in most manners of dress, you can carry much more gun than many seem willing to bother with.

 

[armoredman]

OWB for me, but I like it that way, since I started carrying a sidearm legally 40 years ago. One minor point about Mas' article. If you are not an off duty cop, how you respond to a shooting incident will not be the same as a civilian. The officer will be marching towards the sounds of guns - Joe Sixpack, with 40 extra pounds around the middle, a SiG 365, no spare mag, and a wife and young son with him at the mall will be responding VERY differently. I doubt he would be trying head shots at 25 yards, but probably gut shots at 5!

 

[trackskippy]

Every situation is its own critter and you get what you get, and there's no telling what that might be. People need to get their heads out of the "this is what you can expect, and all you need be worried about" internet thing you always hear and embrace a broader reality.

Cops may have their ROE, but your ROE will be whatever they may need to be, and other than the initial reason for it, there is nothing defensive about self-defense. Doesnt matter who you might be, that will always be the same, and you need to have that mindset.

If you happen to fit the "Joe Sixpack" description, it would be wise to lose the extra 40, choose a better weapon and gear, and work at keeping your skill level up with it. Learning to keep an open mind and being able to go with the flow, instead of expecting a specific, pre-conceived script, would be a good thing too.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Recall an article in one of the gun magazines years ago dealing with "real life" SD situations, one of which involved learning to shoot when you are knocked to the ground. Saw some thing similar in a martial art magazine. showing how practitioners of various styles would react. That article also addressed being grabbed from behind, etc.

 

[21H40]

...
Thing is it is just as important to be aware of your limitations as it is to push your skills to the utmost. If a head shot at 25 yards isn't doable then I know to not do it and need to work around that lack of ability if possible. If it takes me 2 seconds to draw and fire an aimed shot I know I need to wait for or create a two-second window. I need to train not just to expand my abilities, but to understand my limitations so that I can work around them.
...

As my role has changed from soldier to civilian to older civilian, I have had to reassess both my potential role in an event and my capabilities. One of my limitations definitely fits the 25 meter head shot. I can absolutely do that on my range, but if my glasses are dirty or if the lighting is weird, I can't see well enough to be comfortable trying that on a living target in a crowded space. I tend to see 25 meters as far enough that I can probably find somewhere different to be.

I know most of us enjoy imagining ourselves as the heroes who save the day, but I think most of the time, my best role is as the guy who moves out of the way with his family so the young blue professionals can take over.

Now, do not mistake that for being an advocate of carrying something underpowered with less than a dozen rounds. I still carry a pistol that I can successfully engage multiple targets at 25 meters with. I have yet to see an after action report from police or military where anyone complained about having too much ammo left over.

 

[fastbolt]

...
There is a significant J frame coterie in the training world. Their take is that they can be shot decently IF you train up. Also, they acknowledge they are going for the odds of a single opponent, few shots needed risk most of the time.

That's my take.

Indeed.

There are always compromises to be found within compromises, and diminutive DA/DAO snubs, especially the lightweight ones, can push the bounds of what might be an acceptable compromise for a lot of folks.

Working to sufficiently master the skills needed to controllably and accurately run the little snubs, at speed, under stress and duress, requires more investment for most folks than doing the same with larger guns, and even some diminutive pistols.

Even in the heyday of service revolvers, though, when it was rare to find a firearms trainer who didn't have a J-frame, Colt D or even a Charter Arms snub in their pocket (or on their ankle), the snub was considered something carried for only 1, maybe 2, threats. Well, the state of .38SPL ammunition didn't exactly help in those years, either.

While I was still seeing some LE instructors pocketing 5-shot snubs well into the 2000's, seeing them run hard on the range for drills and quals didn't seem exactly frequent. Not as frequent as I'd have liked to see, at any rate. When I returned to snubs at the end of the 90's, I chose to invest a lot more time into range work, especially since I had just ordered my first Airweight, which was a different experience than shooting my older steel snubs. It took me a few cases of ammo to feel like I'd restored my DA (now DAO) trigger skills to match the demands of the Airweight and +P.

I could see the older, experienced LE revolver shooters still pick one up and do well with it, and enjoy it, but the younger cops who hadn't carried service revolvers never really had the chance to have developed the requisite DA revolver skills. It was a little daunting to a lot of them.

In the later 2000's I went through a S&W revolver armorer class for DAO J-frames, for LE armorers, since the little snubs were selling quite well to LE as secondary and off-duty weapons. It was a full class, too. Lots of interest among the students, and the ages ranged from younger cops to older, more experienced cops.

The little .38SPL seems to still have a place in LE work, though, since the newest state contract of ammunition (approved by the CHP, since it's state testing for a state contract, after all) has 9 different .38SPL loads named on it. Some for range/training some for duty/carry (7 ammo brands). They wouldn't have tested and chosen those various loads if there wasn't a demand for .38SPL among the state's LE agencies. I've seen quite a few state ammo contracts over the years, but I've never seen one where 7 different ammo makers won places on the contract for .38 S&W SPL ammo.

Let me see if I can copy/paste that part of the list ... (something for just about everyone, too).

25	.38 Special, 130-135 gr (FMJ) Ballistic	Remington	130 gr	23730
26	.38 Special, 130-135 gr (FMJ) Ballistic	American Eagle	130 gr	AE38S1 or AE38K
27	.38 Special, 130-135 gr (FMJ) Ballistic	Winchester	130 gr	Q4171
28	.38 Special, 125-135 gr Controlled Expansion	Winchester	130 gr bonded +P	RA38B
29	.38 Special, 125-135 gr Controlled Expansion	Speer	135 gr	53921
30	.38 Special, 110 gr Lead-Free Controlled Expansion	Barnes	110 gr +P DPX	DPX38110/20
31	.38 Special, 110 gr Lead-Free Controlled Expansion	Buffalo Bore	110 gr +P Tac-XP	20F/20
32	.38 Special, 100/101 gr Lead-Free Frangible	Remington	101 gr	LF38SA
33	.38 Special, 100/101 gr Lead-Free Frangible	RWS	100 gr Copper-Matrix NTF	203840050

 

[JohnKSa]

Another thing to consider. I see a surprising number of malfunctions in police shooting videos. Makes me think they have never fired their guns from anything other than a firm two-handed hold while in an orthodox standing position. If you're going to bet your life on a gun, you should do a good bit of practice one-handed and weak-handed to make sure if you have to shoot like that in a gunfight, your gun will work properly.

 

[bearcreek]

"As convenient as it might be to carry an itty-bitty mouse gun, take it to the range and determine whether or not you could confidently make a brain shot with it from, say, 25 yards."

In fairness, the vast majority of gun owners and cops could not do that with any size pistol, let alone a "mouse" gun.

 

[ms6852]

As my role has changed from soldier to civilian to older civilian, I have had to reassess both my potential role in an event and my capabilities. One of my limitations definitely fits the 25 meter head shot. I can absolutely do that on my range, but if my glasses are dirty or if the lighting is weird, I can't see well enough to be comfortable trying that on a living target in a crowded space. I tend to see 25 meters as far enough that I can probably find somewhere different to be.

I know most of us enjoy imagining ourselves as the heroes who save the day, but I think most of the time, my best role is as the guy who moves out of the way with his family so the young blue professionals can take over.

Now, do not mistake that for being an advocate of carrying something underpowered with less than a dozen rounds. I still carry a pistol that I can successfully engage multiple targets at 25 meters with. I have yet to see an after action report from police or military where anyone complained about having too much ammo left over.

I like how you think and agree with you. Carrying a pistol that you can successfully engage targets successfully at certain given distances is crucial. Years ago my wife purchased a model 642 airweight pistol for her to have in her purse whenever she traveled out of town. Like most people that carry, her main concern was comfort so my advice to not buy that handgun fell on deaf ears. She fired 5 rounds and never fired it again. Recoil on that gun is more painful than my edc which is a 686.

I shot that pistol and was totally surprised that I had missed all 5 shots on my target at 25 yards. I had to finally move to the 5 yard line and still I missed two shots. In my opinion, for me, this is a gun that I would never feel comfortable carrying, I would feel more comfortable with a 22LR, because I know I can hit at 25 yards with it.

 

[film495]

I prefer the very intentional action needed to discharge a revolver in double action. Under stress, I just think I'm less likely to mess it up somehow, just cause you have to mean it, but all you need to do is point it, and very intentionally pull the double action trigger, very simple.

 

[armoredman]

Yeah, I've never tried shooting a firearm from an unusual position...

 

[CDW4ME]

Mine yes, Glock 19 minimum.

For others the selection process is apparently (when not at work, if they still do):
shootable under stress
enough rounds on board
"wouldn't want to get shot by it"
fits in pocket

 

[drobs]

25yds is my back deck to my 10 inch steel gongs. I practice at that distance with my 2 carry guns - Glock 43X carried OWB and pocket carried Ruger LC9s Pro.
I'll frequently have friends over to shoot off the deck. I'll sit there and ring my gongs all day long with my handguns while they struggle at that distance.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

Mine yes, Glock 19 minimum.

For others the selection process is apparently (when not at work, if they still do):
shootable under stress
enough rounds on board
"wouldn't want to get shot by it"
fits in pocket

I have to pocket carry at work, cannot let clients know I am carrying. Sometimes situations dictate how/what you carry, good for you that you can always carry a Glock 19. Some of us don’t have that option every day.

 

[trackskippy]

You don't "have" to pocket carry, unless that's what you want to do. There are other options available that allow you to carry a more realistic gun, hide it better, and access it more easily.

Ive carried them daily for years in NPE's and never had a problem. You just need to find the right gear for your needs.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

You don't "have" to pocket carry, unless that's what you want to do. There are other options available that allow you to carry a more realistic gun, hide it better, and access it more easily.

Ive carried them daily for years in NPE's and never had a problem. You just need to find the right gear for your needs.

I move constantly in all kinds of different ways while working(I’m a dog trainer). When I first started, I carried a p365 appendix style, boss said he could see it when I did certain things, told me if I want to carry it has to be completely concealed. So now, when working, I pocket carry an LCP 2. Looks like a cell phone with a thick case in my pocket. Tried carrying the p365 that way, looked like a gun. So, for me, it’s either small pocket carry or go unarmed.

 

[drobs]

I move constantly in all kinds of different ways while working(I’m a dog trainer). When I first started, I carried a p365 appendix style, boss said he could see it when I did certain things, told me if I want to carry it has to be completely concealed. So now, when working, I pocket carry an LCP 2. Looks like a cell phone with a thick case in my pocket. Tried carrying the p365 that way, looked like a gun. So, for me, it’s either small pocket carry or go unarmed.

What do you wear for a shirt? I find an untucked short sleeve button down shirt is easiest to conceal with. Polo Shirts cloth or UnderArmor nylon are more difficult to conceal with.

Try a Crossbreed belly band holster with a slim single or double stack 9mm. They position your gun above your waistband and other than being somewhat warm, are very comfortable to carry a larger than LCP sized gun with.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

What do you wear for a shirt? I find an untucked short sleeve button down shirt is easiest to conceal with. Polo Shirts cloth or UnderArmor nylon are more difficult to conceal with.

Try a Crossbreed belly band holster with a slim single or double stack 9mm. They position your gun above your waistband and other than being somewhat warm, are very comfortable to carry a larger than LCP sized gun with.

I have to wear a pretty tight thin t shirt with my work logo on it. One of those slim fit or whatever, don’t think a belly band will work for me either. Also have to do lessons at client’s homes, definitely can’t let these rich liberals know I am carrying at all.

 

[trackskippy]

I move constantly in all kinds of different ways while working(I’m a dog trainer). When I first started, I carried a p365 appendix style, boss said he could see it when I did certain things, told me if I want to carry it has to be completely concealed. So now, when working, I pocket carry an LCP 2. Looks like a cell phone with a thick case in my pocket. Tried carrying the p365 that way, looked like a gun. So, for me, it’s either small pocket carry or go unarmed.

Smart Carry

I worked in a very active and physical job, and for those times my gun had to be absolutely out of sight, this was the ticket. Very comfortable, and quick to access too. Fastest "pocket" draw, from any position going.

Glock 26

Glock 19

 

[FL-NC]

Equally important to the capabilities if the gun, caliber, and shooter is the accessibility and carry method. This is another area that must be incorporated into realistic scenario-based training, and anyone who does this will likely realize quickly that methods like pocket carry, ankle holsters, and small-of-back are not very efficient when being pressed for time to get a gun into play is a factor. Not being able to access your gun quickly could be the same as not having it, which makes the caliber and the shooter's abilities irrelevant.